Ochostinko giving tickets to Ravens fans

[RockGod]

He played at a Probowl level for almost half of Ocho's career. 3 straight years of at least 1300 yards and 12 TDs (including 2 1400 yard performances). He was a 1300 yard rusher as recently as 2 seasons ago. Dude, do you even look shit up before you spout off?

As for attacking you, I'm not. I'm simply refuting your terrible argument that Owens is "head and shoulders" better than Ochocinco. He's a bit better at getting into the endzone, but Ocho is marginally more productive between the goal lines. It's a wash, but Owens is also A CANCER. You cannot separate his off the field issues from his on the field production because his off the field crap got him kicked off of 3 teams.

Also I get that you don't want either, but if that's true why continue to argue how much better Owens is?



This by the way is the dumbest argument I've ever read. By this standard you would argue that Pacman Jones is a better DB than Fabian Washington.

I make the argument because it's true, bottom line points win games. Owens has scored more points then Chad has and he's played on more winning teams then Chad has, it's just a fact.

As far as Rudi Johnson, again I don't care enough about what he's done to look up his stats and be exact about what I say, I'm not spouting off I just don't care. It's probably because he hasn't done anything against the Ravens that I can remember for me to think he's anything speacial.

And double again I DON'T FREAKIN CARE ABOUT TERRELL OWENS I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE AN ARGUMENT ABOUT ANYTHING IN REGARDS TO TERRELL OWENS PERSONALITY. I DON'T CARE THAT HE HAS AN ATTITUDE, I DON'T CARE THAT HE'S BEEN KICKED OFF 3 TEAMS, I DON'T CARE THAT HE'S A CANCER. I'M NOT TRYING TO COMPARE FABIAN WASHINGTON AND PAC MAN JONES. A L L I' M S A Y I N G I S Y E A R I N A N D Y E A R O U T T E R R E L L O W E N S I S B E T T E R T H E N C H A D. I'M NOT MAKING IT UP THERE ARE NUMBERS THERE THAT PROVE IT, IT'S NOT MY OPINION IT'S A FACT. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO THINK SO I D O N' T C A R E!

[effo5231]

I make the argument because it's true, bottom line points win games. Owens has scored more points then Chad has and he's played on more winning teams then Chad has, it's just a fact.

Your football acumen is astoundingly bad.

As far as Rudi Johnson, again I don't care enough about what he's done to look up his stats and be exact about what I say, I'm not spouting off I just don't care. It's probably because he hasn't done anything against the Ravens that I can remember for me to think he's anything speacial.

Translation: Your facts don't agree with my opinion so I'm not listening. You're one step above sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalala"

And double again I DON'T FREAKIN CARE ABOUT TERRELL OWENS I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE AN ARGUMENT ABOUT ANYTHING IN REGARDS TO TERRELL OWENS PERSONALITY. I DON'T CARE THAT HE HAS AN ATTITUDE, I DON'T CARE THAT HE'S BEEN KICKED OFF 3 TEAMS, I DON'T CARE THAT HE'S A CANCER. I'M NOT TRYING TO COMPARE FABIAN WASHINGTON AND PAC MAN JONES. A L L I' M S A Y I N G I S Y E A R I N A N D Y E A R O U T T E R R E L L O W E N S I S B E T T E R T H E N C H A D. I'M NOT MAKING IT UP THERE ARE NUMBERS THERE THAT PROVE IT, IT'S NOT MY OPINION IT'S A FACT. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO THINK SO I D O N' T C A R E!

There ya go... now your sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalala."

[RockGod]

Your football acumen is astoundingly bad.



Translation: Your facts don't agree with my opinion so I'm not listening. You're one step above sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalala"



There ya go... now your sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalala."

You have offered nothing by way of facts that support Chad being the better receiver. You only offer "Averages" that when held up against the actual year to year stats are repudiated. You don't address specifics like Owens playing on more winning teams and the fact that Owens stats prove he's the better receiver, and that's the whole point. I commented on 1 persons post about wanting Chad over T.O. I merely gave my opinion that I would take T.O. over Chad because he's the better receiver. You chime in with character issues and averages which has nothing to do with anything in regards to the player’s ability to play the position better then another’s. The facts are the facts it's not my fault your on the losing side of those facts.

I wasn't sticking my fingers in my ears going lalala, I was typing slowly so you could keep up with what I was saying for the umpteenth time.

[effo5231]

You have offered nothing by way of facts that support Chad being the better receiver. You only offer "Averages" that when held up against the actual year to year stats are repudiated. You don't address specifics like Owens playing on more winning teams and the fact that Owens stats prove he's the better receiver, and that's the whole point. I commented on 1 persons post about wanting Chad over T.O. I merely gave my opinion that I would take T.O. over Chad because he's the better receiver. You chime in with character issues and averages which has nothing to do with anything in regards to the player’s ability to play the position better then another’s. The facts are the facts it's not my fault your on the losing side of those facts.

I wasn't sticking my fingers in my ears going lalala, I was typing slowly so you could keep up with what I was saying for the umpteenth time.

Ok you want facts? In any given season Chad can be projected to record slightly more catches for slightly more yards than TO, TO can be projected to score a couple more TDs. To me, that's roughly a wash... TO may be more valuable to a small degree because of his redzone ability, but then again Ocho has never played on a team that NEEDED him to be a redzone target. He always had a power running game behind him for those scores. All of those statements are facts, and taken together they paint a picture of 2 men who are roughly equal in their value to a football team.

Now here are some more facts. TO has been run out of every team he ever played for. His value to any particular franchise is deeply impacted by the fact that you can only count on him to provide you with 2-3 years of value before his on the field production begins to be outweighed by his off the field nonsense. Ocho, for all his flaws, has spent his career on a bad team, has only missed a handful of games for that team in 8 years, and has produced at an AllPro level for 6 of those 8 years, and assuming his production for this season bears out through the final 8 games... he'll have provided one franchise with All Pro production for 7 of his 9 years in the league. You cannot say that about TO.

As for me only giving averages, you don't understand that comparing their average season is the only fair way to compare the value right? I even made it easier for you and compared their average game! The averages are based on their previous production... that has EVERYTHING to do with a player's ability to play a position.

I can only assume you're being intentionally obtuse in an effort to troll at this point. No real person who is smart enough to turn on his computer is this dense.

[RockGod]

Ok you want facts? In any given season Chad can be projected to record slightly more catches for slightly more yards than TO, TO can be projected to score a couple more TDs. To me, that's roughly a wash... TO may be more valuable to a small degree because of his redzone ability, but then again Ocho has never played on a team that NEEDED him to be a redzone target. He always had a power running game behind him for those scores. All of those statements are facts, and taken together they paint a picture of 2 men who are roughly equal in their value to a football team.

Now here are some more facts. TO has been run out of every team he ever played for. His value to any particular franchise is deeply impacted by the fact that you can only count on him to provide you with 2-3 years of value before his on the field production begins to be outweighed by his off the field nonsense. Ocho, for all his flaws, has spent his career on a bad team, has only missed a handful of games for that team in 8 years, and has produced at an AllPro level for 6 of those 8 years, and assuming his production for this season bears out through the final 8 games... he'll have provided one franchise with All Pro production for 7 of his 9 years in the league. You cannot say that about TO.

As for me only giving averages, you don't understand that comparing their average season is the only fair way to compare the value right? I even made it easier for you and compared their average game! The averages are based on their previous production... that has EVERYTHING to do with a player's ability to play a position.

I can only assume you're being intentionally obtuse in an effort to troll at this point. No real person who is smart enough to turn on his computer is this dense.

Ok, I'm done with this; you just want to make an excuse for nothing. What wins games TD or catches? TD's or yards? When the averages you produce are held up to the ACTUAL STATS year to year they are repudiated.

You say that Chad AVERAGES 1 TD for every 11 catches, yet in 2007 it was every 12 catches. You said that T.O. AVERAGES 1 td for every 7 catches yet in 2007 it was every 5 catches. You make excuses like Chad had a running back for redzone td's yet there is no way to prove that there was a need for a redzone running back for Owens. How do you know that because of Owens catching 30, 40, 50 yard td's there was no need for a redzone running back? Your logic or lack there of and excuses to make a case for Chad being the better receiver or a receiver that minus character issues you would chose over T.O. is mind boggling.


Your whole argument is stupid and shows me that you just can't stand to be proven wrong. I don't want either of them on my team, I don't freaking care what you think or believe because the numbers prove you wrong. You are wrong, you have nothing but made circumstances like redzone running backs to make your case but in the end we both know you are wrong. This is my last word on this because as the saying goes "don't argue with an idiot in public." But you are wrong, get over it.

[effo5231]

Ok, I'm done with this; you just want to make an excuse for nothing. What wins games TD or catches? TD's or yards? When the averages you produce are held up to the ACTUAL STATS year to year they are repudiated.

If you go back and compare year by year, Chad outperformed TO in catches and yards 5 out of 7 years between 2002 and 2008. TO outperformed Ocho in TDs in 6 out of 7. How precisely does that repudiate me saying that Chad gets more catches for more yards and TO gets more TDs?

You say that Chad AVERAGES 1 TD for every 11 catches, yet in 2007 it was every 12 catches. You said that T.O. AVERAGES 1 td for every 7 catches yet in 2007 it was every 5 catches.

You do understand that a larger sample size makes for a more accurate comparison right?

You make excuses like Chad had a running back for redzone td's yet there is no way to prove that there was a need for a redzone running back for Owens. How do you know that because of Owens catching 30, 40, 50 yard td's there was no need for a redzone running back?

I never said TO needed a redzone back... I specifically praised him for having red zone value. I argued that its impossible to prove that Chad wouldn't have had similar results in the sort of offenses TO was in. As for 30, 40, 50 yard TDs, now your arguing that TO is the better deep threat... Let's examine that claim. For his career, TO averages 14.8 YPC... Ocho? 14.6... Its not terribly likely that Owens was breaking off long TD grabs that Ocho wasn't... more likely Owens is getting more looks in the redzone.

Your logic or lack there of and excuses to make a case for Chad being the better receiver or a receiver that minus character issues you would chose over T.O. is mind boggling.

My whole point is that Chad is the better receiver because they have roughly equal production, but Owens has MAJOR CHARACTER ISSUES. I'll concede that if a quiet, decent guy like Mark Clayton were to discover a magic pill that could give him the body and talent of either TO or Ocho I'd want him to take TO powers... but we're not arguing over who has more value regardless of character issues... we're arguing who has more value. TO's inability to stay on a team massively reduces his value. Can you not concede that?

Your whole argument is stupid and shows me that you just can't stand to be proven wrong. I don't want either of them on my team, I don't freaking care what you think or believe because the numbers prove you wrong. You are wrong, you have nothing but made circumstances like redzone running backs to make your case but in the end we both know you are wrong. This is my last word on this because as the saying goes "don't argue with an idiot in public." But you are wrong, get over it.

No, I've used statistics, facts, and a refusal to ignore relevant data to make my argument... you've cherry picked stats, ignored one player's inability to stay in a locker room for more than 3 seasons, and willfully misconstrued my statements.

Troll suspicion confirmed.

[RockGod]

I'll concede that if a quiet, decent guy like Mark Clayton were to discover a magic pill that could give him the body and talent of either TO or Ocho I'd want him to take TO powers... but we're not arguing over who has more value regardless of character issues... we're arguing who has more value.

Yes we are, that's exactly what I'm saying. I said 100 freakin times that I wouldn't want either but that T.O. is the better receiver, that's all I'm saying. I don't care about the stats and averages, I don't care about character issues because I don't want, like or respect either of them. All I said in my one little post was that I would take T.O. over Chad because he's the better receiver. Then I said I had to take scolding hot shower for saying it.

I'm not a troll, I'm not Bengals fan or a T.O. fan, I'm a Ravens fan. I made one little comment and that was it. I'm done with it.