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Thread: Brilliant

  1. #13

    Re: Brilliant



    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne View Post
    Seriously Jonboy...your lights still on. you're wasting electricity.
    Becuase I am supposed to give in to the fact that Liberalism and common sense are mutually exclusive terms? I'm sorry for continuing to enlighten poor lost souls such as yoru own.




  2. #14
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    Re: Brilliant

    Is this really the best you've got Galen? I'm glad they brought up fire fighting as its a specialty of mine.

    As a Professional Firefighter I can tell you that your LOCAL governments provide you (from taxes, not "free") with Police* , Fire, and Water services, not the Federal government. That's why I laughed at that cartoon you posted Galen.

    The Fed will set Standards for the FD and public area's via NFPA (Federal and tax funded, not "Free"). Despite the video's best efforts in trying to say that Fire Service is "Free", it is completely and utterly wrong and incorrect. Your local taxes pay for whatever fire services are available (Paid and volunteer), and in some cases like Howard County, you're charged a "Rural Fire Tax" for being outside of City water. Its a tax, therefore you pay for it whether you use it or not. Also, local Volunteer firehouses are supplemented with fund-raisers and in most cases, provided with Local tax dollars to purchase equipment. Local governments, like Balto Co, will pay (tax funded, not "free") Volunteer stations that have a medic to be "Attended", which means they keep a crew available. Occasionally, the Fed provides grants (tax funded, not "free") via Homeland Security and/or FEMA.

    Which brings me to my next point: Why aren't citizens forced to carry health insurance much like people are required to carry car insurance if they drive? I cannot leave my house and drive a vehicle and not carry insurance yet its a law and I'm required to carry it. How come those big, bad car insurance companies like GEICO (Buffett) and State Farm, etc., all make money for their shareholders yet Private insurers are vilified because they make money? Have you ever thought that everyone who pays into a certain Health plan doesn't have a catastrophic injury/illness that requires big $$$$ to fix and that those "pools" aren't drained?

    That same argument goes for car insurance, which is why a 20yo kid would have to pay big $$$$ to drive around in a "Sports car" because the likelihood of him/her having an accident and injuring himself and/or others is high (We'll call it "preexisting condition", since its based on averages/history) versus a 50yo female w/a clean driving record driving around in a Honda Civic. Its all based on averages on what could happen, which is why most car insurance providers, much like health care insurers, make a profit.

    Where is the outrage?

    *- and the State too, depending on where you live.




  3. #15

    Re: Brilliant

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Because you have no concept of what the document is about. There are not finite provisions on what they can do. The Constitution is a document hat sets out parameters for a Federal government and how the powers are seperated between that and the state governments. They rightly so figured that issues liek these should be more localized and handled by the states. the Fed government was only intended as protection and governance to keep the states together.
    Wellllllll, since you brought it up, as you often do.......State's rights is just as much of a pipe dream as true socialism.... It CANNOT work.. it hasn't worked when tried, that's why the Federal government has had to regulate so many of the things you so adamantly insist shouldn't be Federally regulated... 50 states spread out over 15 times the territory as were the 13 colonies with the "state's rights" you so fervently support would be nothing short of ANARCHY!.. It seemed like a good idea at the time.... just like every one having an equal share of the pie seems a good idea to some... just won't work... hasn't worked. Think about it.. Huey Long comes to mind... and lots more. Let the governments of the states whose people want slaves allow slavery... is that ok? I mean are you saying that Abe was a constitution breaker? If so, are you saying that was a BAD thing? That argument is just archaic and self serving!




  4. #16
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    Re: Brilliant

    Quote Originally Posted by 4G63 View Post
    Is this really the best you've got Galen? I'm glad they brought up fire fighting as its a specialty of mine.

    As a Professional Firefighter I can tell you that your LOCAL governments provide you (from taxes, not "free") with Police* , Fire, and Water services, not the Federal government. That's why I laughed at that cartoon you posted Galen.

    The Fed will set Standards for the FD and public area's via NFPA (Federal and tax funded, not "Free"). Despite the video's best efforts in trying to say that Fire Service is "Free", it is completely and utterly wrong and incorrect. Your local taxes pay for whatever fire services are available (Paid and volunteer), and in some cases like Howard County, you're charged a "Rural Fire Tax" for being outside of City water. Its a tax, therefore you pay for it whether you use it or not. Also, local Volunteer firehouses are supplemented with fund-raisers and in most cases, provided with Local tax dollars to purchase equipment. Local governments, like Balto Co, will pay (tax funded, not "free") Volunteer stations that have a medic to be "Attended", which means they keep a crew available. Occasionally, the Fed provides grants (tax funded, not "free") via Homeland Security and/or FEMA.

    Which brings me to my next point: Why aren't citizens forced to carry health insurance much like people are required to carry car insurance if they drive? I cannot leave my house and drive a vehicle and not carry insurance yet its a law and I'm required to carry it. How come those big, bad car insurance companies like GEICO (Buffett) and State Farm, etc., all make money for their shareholders yet Private insurers are vilified because they make money? Have you ever thought that everyone who pays into a certain Health plan doesn't have a catastrophic injury/illness that requires big $$$$ to fix and that those "pools" aren't drained?

    That same argument goes for car insurance, which is why a 20yo kid would have to pay big $$$$ to drive around in a "Sports car" because the likelihood of him/her having an accident and injuring himself and/or others is high (We'll call it "preexisting condition", since its based on averages/history) versus a 50yo female w/a clean driving record driving around in a Honda Civic. Its all based on averages on what could happen, which is why most car insurance providers, much like health care insurers, make a profit.

    Where is the outrage?

    *- and the State too, depending on where you live.
    I don't think the video is saying that firefighting is free. It is making a comparison that taxes paid for firefighting is like an insurance fund that everyone pays into and can then "pull from" in the case of a fire. Public health insurance would be the same.

    The analogy is productive when one is forced to think about if they privately had to pay "fire fighter insurance" and then had to go through a process similar to health insurance reimbursement when their kitchen caught on fire.








  5. #17

    Re: Brilliant

    Quote Originally Posted by Rochardrik View Post
    Wellllllll, since you brought it up, as you often do.......State's rights is just as much of a pipe dream as true socialism.... It CANNOT work.. it hasn't worked when tried, that's why the Federal government has had to regulate so many of the things you so adamantly insist shouldn't be Federally regulated... 50 states spread out over 15 times the territory as were the 13 colonies with the "state's rights" you so fervently support would be nothing short of ANARCHY!.. It seemed like a good idea at the time.... just like every one having an equal share of the pie seems a good idea to some... just won't work... hasn't worked. Think about it.. Huey Long comes to mind... and lots more. Let the governments of the states whose people want slaves allow slavery... is that ok? I mean are you saying that Abe was a constitution breaker? If so, are you saying that was a BAD thing? That argument is just archaic and self serving!
    Then there is the difference between regulation and ownership...




  6. #18
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    Re: Brilliant

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne View Post
    I don't think the video is saying that firefighting is free. It is making a comparison that taxes paid for firefighting is like an insurance fund that everyone pays into and can then "pull from" in the case of a fire. Public health insurance would be the same.

    The analogy is productive when one is forced to think about if they privately had to pay "fire fighter insurance" and then had to go through a process similar to health insurance reimbursement when their kitchen caught on fire.
    I seem to recall the narrator of that cartoon say that all those services were "free". I'll check it again when I get home.

    My comparison of health and car insurance is more applicable here and I'm actually rquired by law to have it. Free market car insurance allows competition, which inturn lowers price. "15 minutes could save you 15% or more". I'm sure you've heard that before? Well, why doesn't the government get involved with car insurance? Hell? Its required by law and the Fed doesn't need to make a profit so why don't we put all of those terrible publicly traded insurance profiteers out of business?

    BTW, HR3200. Is not a true "public option" based on wording, despite what The Won says....




  7. #19

    Re: Brilliant

    Quote Originally Posted by 4G63 View Post
    I seem to recall the narrator of that cartoon say that all those services were "free". I'll check it again when I get home.
    ....
    Public, government run and free... said back to back twice for emphasis.

    I don't buy the efficiency and admin cost claims. Medicare would be more then a handful of years from bankrupt if that were the case.

    And at the end. IT is "free to everyone" sut as health insurance should be.

    That was the closing line. You really want to be taken seriously and end your "propaghanda-formercial"????




  8. #20
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    Re: Brilliant

    Quote Originally Posted by effo5231 View Post
    We've been over this Galen... logical appeals to reason based cause brain tumors.
    I'm waiting on your logical retort to my logical retort......




  9. #21
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    Re: Brilliant

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    I don't buy the efficiency and admin cost claims. Medicare would be more then a handful of years from bankrupt if that were the case.
    Sure Medicare is in danger of going bankrupt, no one denies that. Obama has been saying that forever. Private insurance would also be in danger of going bankrupt if they were not planning on doubling the prices of your premiums in the next ten years.

    The difference between private insurance not going bankrupt and medicare going bankrupt is that private insurance can do two things medicare can't. Pay attention here;

    1. Raise your premiums as much as they want

    2. Deny you services as much as they want

    Therefore they will not go bankrupt. This is what the debate is about. Using the "medicare is going bankrupt" is a strawman argument and is a basic fallacy when you use it in a context that private insurance won't go bankrupt.

    Set the two up apples for apples and medicare will out perform private insurance based on a 3% overhead vs. 20% overhead. That is just basic Business 101.








  10. #22
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    Re: Brilliant

    Quote Originally Posted by 4G63 View Post
    I'm waiting on your logical retort to my logical retort......
    At 4:18 in the video the narrator says;

    "Fire insurance is free for everyone, Paid for with our tax dollars with no one skimming off the top just like health insurance should be"

    Maybe it could have been said clearer but this is serious nitpicking! "Free for everyone" meaning we don't pay an actual monthly premium per se but it is paid for by "our tax dollars".

    If you want to argue that point, I give up and will go play in Effo's sandbox. Of course a public option will have to be paid for from tax dollars...no one has argued against that. I am not sure what your logical retort is???








  11. #23

    Re: Brilliant

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne View Post
    Set the two up apples for apples and medicare will out perform private insurance based on a 3% overhead vs. 20% overhead. That is just basic Business 101.
    This is the part I don't buy. Not in the slightest. I'd like to see accurate figures here. Complete figures, not fudged figures due to no oversight.




  12. #24
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    Re: Brilliant

    A recent poll by the AARP shows how little this country understands about the public option and as a result, why it has been so hard to push through;



    As reported at TPM:

    Nate Silver wrote a post last night flagging an AARP poll, the upshot of which is that Americans don't seem to have any idea what the 'public option' even is. As Silver notes, the fact that only 37% of respondents correctly identified what the 'public option' was, and the fact that respondents were only given three options, shows that random guessing would have produced pretty much the same result.

    A big part of the reason randon guessing on the poll would yield no better correct responses is the power of the Right to confuse the debate. The reason the Right does this is because they are the party of big business and Corporate America. So in essense, they refuse to do what is right for the average american in lieu of doing what is right for Corporate USA. One would hope for this process being better exposed.








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