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  1. #16

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best



    Quote Originally Posted by UKRavenStockers View Post
    I agree with you that it makes sense to give him a blow on passing downs when we've got better interior pass rushers, but I also think it's an indictment of his pass rushing skills that it is so simple to give him his breaks on passing downs. If he was as rounded a DT as guys like Kevin Williams and Haynesworth etc. that many want to compare Ngata to he'd be getting his breaks on running and passing downs to keep him out there on the key passing plays as well.

    For our scheme and for what we ask him to do I'm not going to dispute that Ngata (822 snaps in 19 games, 43.2 snaps per game) is as good as there is in the league and I'd not trade him in for anyone considering what he can do now within our scheme and his future upside, but in terms of all-round ability as a DT compared to others around the league he wouldn't make my top 5 just yet. His play against the run alone determines that he's a top 10 talent, but I can't put him in my top 5 yet. That'd go something along the lines of:

    - Kevin Williams - Brutally disruptive against run & pass, been doing what Haynesworth does for longer and not merely in contract years. (995 snaps in 17 games, 58.5 snaps per game)

    - Albert Haynesworth - He may have only fulfilled his potential in his contract years but he was brutally dominant in both run and pass, Ngata can match his play against the run but his pass rushing is world's different. They're different players in that regard but Haynesworth is still the markedly better player IMO. (735 snaps in 15 games, 49 snaps per game)

    - Jay Ratliff - This one I'll probably get shouted down for but he is the centre-piece of the Cowboys D-line, was even with Chris Canty in town and he shows what an NT can do rushing the passer and taking on one-on-one blocks in the middle of the line, particularly against centres who are typically the least athletically gifted players on the O-line. Not going to attract the double teams that Ngata does but in terms of beating blocks to make tackles he's as good and rushing the passer he's massively better. (694 snaps in 16 games, 43.4 snaps per game)

    - Marcus Stroud - Again, all round talent at DT. Slipped under the radar with his move to Buffalo but he was superb and unnoticed last year both against the run and pass. (Not done the Bills full season yet but currently 457 snaps through 9 games, 50.8 snaps per game)

    - Jamal Williams - Slowing down with injuries but still absolutely class up the middle of the Chargers defence against the run. This is who Ngata will likely push past in the near future but I don't think he's quite there yet. (Not done the Chargers full season yet but currently 462 snaps through 11 games, 42 snaps per game)


    I guess what this all boils down to is how you balance a DT's play against the run in comparison to their play as a pass rusher. If you just want the run defence then sure, Ngata is probably top 5, probably top 2 with Williams. But I think you've got to respect the true force as pass rushers that the likes of Williams, Haynesworth and Ratliff are and give them their due as being a level above Ngata as all-round DTs.

    As a break down of Ngata's snaps last year as with these guys above, Ngata played 822 snaps in 19 games, 43.2 snaps per game. In those 822 snaps he played the run 358 times, rushed the passer 438 times and dropped into coverage 26 times. For those 438 pass rushes he got 2 sacks (week 8 against Oakland & Conference title game in Pittsburgh)) and hit the QB 9 times. Not exactly massive returns for the number of times after the QB, even for an NT.

    Again, I'm not saying Ngata isn't up there, but he's not quite in the top level just yet IMO.
    Jay Ratliff and Marcus Stroud????

    Put down the crack pipe and get back to reality.

    Marcus Stroud was just traded for a 3rd and a 5th last year,I doubt that the entire league wouldnt pony up more than that for a "top 5 DT" Stroud was at the top of his game 3 years ago,and might have been in the conversation then but not anymore.

    Jay Ratliff anchored the TWELFTH ranked run defense for the Cowboys.Oh and BTW the Cowboys have been searching for a true NT for a while now,and even experimented with Ratliff at DE in training camp last year.He is 6'4 302 and more suited for DE,way to light to be a "premier NT like you claim"

    But I forgot your criteria apparently is sacks so he fits the bill.

    Here is a good article from right before the draft about the status of the Cowboys NT position...

    http://www.blueandsilverreport.com/2...kle-prospects/

    Whereís The Beef? 2009ís Crop of Defensive Tackle Prospects

    Posted: January 31, 2009 @ 9:35 pm

    The consensus opinion among Cowboy fans and league ďexpertsĒ is that the Cowboys defense needs to add a run-stuffing, space-eating nose tackle to a defense that ranked 12th against the run in 2008. While perusing this yearís list of draft eligible defensive tackles, it becomes quickly evident that this yearís class of cloggers is a bit short on heft. There are just not a ton of 3-4 style defensive tackles in this draft. Of the top 40 prospects at the position, only four tip the scales at more than 315 lbs. Of course, not every 3-4 nose tackle has to be a 350 lb. monster. Jason Ferguson has held the position down for quite some time at about 305 lbs. Good strength and balance, coupled with superb technique can compensate for a lack of overwhelming size.

    As you can see, it has been a bit of a mixed bag as far as drafting nose tackles in recent history. And with a thin class of draftees, the Cowboys may have to venture beyond all conventional thinking to plug this hole. Is Magnus Ver Magnusson busy? Canít we just re-sign Marcus Spears, and hook him up with a platinum Golden Corral pass? Honestly, tell me that dude ainít the second coming of Gilbert Brown waiting to happen.

    In all seriousness, nose tackle is a legitimate need for the Dallas Cowboys. The list of two-gapping free agents-to-be leaves a lot to be desired, and the draft class is skimpy. The Cowboys may have to settle for another slightly undersized penetrator who can at least give Ratliff an occasional breather. If there is not a nose to be had who can free up Ratliff to play some end, the defense could still benefit from always having a fresh body in the middle. However the front office chooses to address this need, the decision will go a long way in determining whether or not a defense that showed flashes of greatness can take the next step forward.

    There are a couple of other guys you could have thrown in the mix like Shaun Rogers and Kris Jenkins,but Stroud and Ratliff aren't in the conversation.

    Anytime you get into these "top 5 this or that at this position" there is no true way to measure who is number 1 2 3 etc,just that these are the top guys at the position.Ngata is easily in the top 5,and because of his age I wouldnt trade him for ANY of those other guys who are all up there near 30 years old.Ngata will be anchoring our line for the next 8 years while those guys are crossing 30 and slipping with their play and have limited time left as dominant players.




  2. #17

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by UKRavenStockers View Post
    I'll probably be a rare dissenting voice in this thread but their rankings for Wilfork, Ngata and Canty are all extremely generous in my opinion. Wilfork and Ngata are both tremendous against the run but aren't rounded football players, neither's ability as a pass rusher is good enough for me to consider them top 5 DTs, and as for Canty, he's barely played a down as a 4-3 DT in his career, he was a 3-4 end in Dallas and when he was in for their 4 man lines in passing situations it was at end as often as tackle.

    Ngata's run defence isn't far short of being as good as there is, but his pass rushing is distinctly average, there are more than 3 better all-round DTs in the NFL CURRENTLY than Ngata for my money.
    Dude don't make bold proclamations like that without backing them up. Who else is better?? Ngata is extremely athletic and well rounded. He played the part given to him by Rex Ryan and did it very well. The dude was getting doubled and tripled on plays and you expect him to also be a top rusher?

    Where are you getting this stuff? The interception in the end zone- that probably won the game in Houston- was one of the most athletic plays I've ever seen by a d-lineman.
    "Sorry officer, nothing wrong here. I'm just watching the Ravens game!"




  3. #18

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Thunder View Post
    Dude don't make bold proclamations like that without backing them up. Who else is better?? Ngata is extremely athletic and well rounded. He played the part given to him by Rex Ryan and did it very well. The dude was getting doubled and tripled on plays and you expect him to also be a top rusher?

    Where are you getting this stuff? The interception in the end zone- that probably won the game in Houston- was one of the most athletic plays I've ever seen by a d-lineman.
    I'd love to disagree with Stockers here because I think Ngata is fantastic. The truth is that his job is to analyze football games. You can view the site he works for by clicking the link in his signature. If he says that Stroud and Ratliff outperformed Ngata then take it to the bank that they did.




  4. #19
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    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Why are people jumping on Stockers? Because he is saying something against the emotion of Ravens fans?

    He isnt saying Ngata doesnt have talent or that he isnt one hell of an athlete.

    He is simply saying there are a select two or three in the league that are better then him at this moment.

    And Im sorry, but the INT against Houston was not a game turner. We had that game from the start. Yes, it was one hell of a play, but some game changing event in the clutch.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  5. #20

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Why are people jumping on Stockers? Because he is saying something against the emotion of Ravens fans?

    He isnt saying Ngata doesnt have talent or that he isnt one hell of an athlete.

    He is simply saying there are a select two or three in the league that are better then him at this moment.

    And Im sorry, but the INT against Houston was not a game turner. We had that game from the start. Yes, it was one hell of a play, but some game changing event in the clutch.
    Could it be because he is wrong??? Maybe?

    Why dont you go read my post over again,with the facts to back up what I said included.

    To put a guy like Jay freaking Ratliff who isnt even a true NT in the mix and Stroud to a lesser degree is ridiculous.Now if you want top put a guy like Jenkins or Rogers in there we could have and argument.

    Either way,Ngata is maybe the 6th best at WORST.But again he is 25 while the others are all 30 and over...I will take Ngata 6 days a week and twice on Sunday over all of those guys.




  6. #21
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    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    I didnt know opinions were right or wrong. My bad. I guess we all dont have the acumen you have.

    And I did read your post and his. You make valid points. Stockers makes valid points.

    And like I said, he is not discrediting Ngata in any way, shape or form.

    It is not I who needs to re-read what he wrote. That much is obvious.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  7. #22

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    The Ravens ran Rattliff right over when the season was on the line. Brown and Grubbs mashed him into the turf on both of the season breaking/ record breaking long runs to close out the cowboys.

    The Dallas D had a good late surge led by Ware and his 20 sacks, but they were suspect, with more speed than substance up front.

    Stroud, Rodgers and Jenkins all started out hot last year, but none of them were still stuffing fools down the stretch like Nagta was. He got better as the year went on, and should continue to improve for a while. He should be better than Haynesworth by the time he is that age.

    Nagta, Ray, Reed and even Sizzle are sort of like our Jim Brown, or Bubba Smith, Jonny U, or what ever, and the stats argument was best summed up by Jim Brown when compared to Franco Harris.

    “Why would a 230-pound man run out of bounds?” Brown once said, per Freeman’s book. “Why is everyone dancing, mugging for the camera? Where’s the danger in the game? Where are the characters and the warriors? You talk about records. Why even compare me to Franco? He played thirteen years, I played nine. He played something like fifty more games. Man gets four strikes to my three, where’s the significance? My performance spoke for itself. I don’t want to hear any shit about Franco.”
    Last edited by Jeremiah W; 05-24-2009 at 12:43 PM.




  8. #23

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Shaun Rogers sucks.




  9. #24

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by 52decleetzu View Post
    Could it be because he is wrong??? Maybe?

    Why dont you go read my post over again,with the facts to back up what I said included.

    To put a guy like Jay freaking Ratliff who isnt even a true NT in the mix and Stroud to a lesser degree is ridiculous.Now if you want top put a guy like Jenkins or Rogers in there we could have and argument.

    Either way,Ngata is maybe the 6th best at WORST.But again he is 25 while the others are all 30 and over...I will take Ngata 6 days a week and twice on Sunday over all of those guys.
    Point 1. Jay Ratliff is as much not a true NT as Kelly Gregg was when everyone was slating him. Just because you're not 340lbs doesn't mean you're not a capable NT.

    Point 2. Nobody is saying they would gladly trade away Ngata. All that was said is that CURRENTLY he's not the 4th best DT in the NFL.




  10. #25
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    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    What I saw of Ratliff was quite impressive, I thought.

    As for those big runs... I can only remember the Willis run in good detail. The nose got double teamed out of the hole by Brown face-up and Chester on an excellent down-block. That play was much more a result of the defense playing up in the box, leaving the safeties taking shallow angles.




  11. #26
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    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by effo5231 View Post
    Two things, 1. Ngata isn't supposed to be rushing the QB in our scheme... He's supposed to be eating blockers so Suggs, Gooden, Ray, and JJ can eat QBs. 2... Name the ones you think are better than Ngata.
    That's right on Effo. When the Ravens had 60 sacks in 2006, Ngata (1 sack) was 2nd on the team to JJ (1.5 sacks) in sacks as a percentage of pass plays while they were in the game. The majority of those were eating doubles so the Ravens could free Scott, Pryce, Suggs, and Thomas to beat singles. Ngata accomplished it with mass and explosiveness, JJ with tremendous fakes dropping into coverage.

    Stockers,

    I certainly respect your opinion re Ngata given the amount of time you spend with the video, but I'd disagree on this one. I think he did not have quite the year in 2008 that he did in 2007, but he remains the primary reason you can't run on the Ravens. That ability is particularly important to a defense with poor tacklers in the secondary like the 2009 Ravens without Landry and with Reed ailing for the first 8-10 games. I know you like him as much as I do as a run defender.

    As to his value to the pass defense, I have to ask if that's based on the way he grades out by the system on profootballfocus.com (a site I highly recommend, BTW)? I don't know how Neil's system credits a DT who takes a double when another pass rusher gets a sack, QH, or pressure by beating a single. He is not Haynesworth or Sapp or Rodgers as a pass rusher, but I'm not convinced he doesn't create similar opportunities for others.




  12. #27

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by Filmstudy View Post
    That's right on Effo. When the Ravens had 60 sacks in 2006, Ngata (1 sack) was 2nd on the team to JJ (1.5 sacks) in sacks as a percentage of pass plays while they were in the game. The majority of those were eating doubles so the Ravens could free Scott, Pryce, Suggs, and Thomas to beat singles. Ngata accomplished it with mass and explosiveness, JJ with tremendous fakes dropping into coverage.

    Stockers,

    I certainly respect your opinion re Ngata given the amount of time you spend with the video, but I'd disagree on this one. I think he did not have quite the year in 2008 that he did in 2007, but he remains the primary reason you can't run on the Ravens. That ability is particularly important to a defense with poor tacklers in the secondary like the 2009 Ravens without Landry and with Reed ailing for the first 8-10 games. I know you like him as much as I do as a run defender.

    As to his value to the pass defense, I have to ask if that's based on the way he grades out by the system on profootballfocus.com (a site I highly recommend, BTW)? I don't know how Neil's system credits a DT who takes a double when another pass rusher gets a sack, QH, or pressure by beating a single. He is not Haynesworth or Sapp or Rodgers as a pass rusher, but I'm not convinced he doesn't create similar opportunities for others.
    good stuff.

    What Nagta does is beat his man and hold his ground even when doubled. The Ravens were able to double Rattliff and root him right out of the way when they knew we were running. Tha does not happen to us because Nagta explodes into the first guy and disrupts any kind of possible stretch or pull play, and allows Ray to scrape off his back where ever the ball goes, down hill and behind or at the line.

    Those 3rd and short situations are game changing, and Nagta makes a ton of them as well as forcing a lot of the 3rd and longs that create direct turnovers and sacks.




  13. #28

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswarrior19 View Post
    In terms of physical abilities, Shawn Rodgers was one of my top 3 DTs last year. His level of play, when he's on, is probably second to none. .
    There you go. He should have been number 1 or 2 on the list.

    UKStockers is right. Ngata hasn't shown that he can rush the passer yet. He's still young and can improve in this area. Filmstudy, I don't watch as much film as you, but I don't remember Ngata taking many doubles on pass protection. I recall that Trevor Pryce seemed to draw them consistently in the first 2/3 of the season.

    His dropping back into coverage was cool but only works if he's directly between the QB and his receiver. Let's face it, he's not going to do any serious scampering around in the secondary. We need him to rush the passer better.

    He IS a stud, no doubt about it but he's not elite yet....




  14. #29

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Lap View Post
    There you go. He should have been number 1 or 2 on the list.

    UKStockers is right. Ngata hasn't shown that he can rush the passer yet. He's still young and can improve in this area. Filmstudy, I don't watch as much film as you, but I don't remember Ngata taking many doubles on pass protection. I recall that Trevor Pryce seemed to draw them consistently in the first 2/3 of the season.

    His dropping back into coverage was cool but only works if he's directly between the QB and his receiver. Let's face it, he's not going to do any serious scampering around in the secondary. We need him to rush the passer better.

    He IS a stud, no doubt about it but he's not elite yet....
    dude, you're not getting what everyone is saying here. ngata IS elite at what he is asked to do. a 3-4 DT is not asked to rush the passer, ngata will never be a 5-10 sack guy in our system (shaun rogers only had 4.5 in a solid season with the brownies this past year, kris jenkins had 3.5). with ngata, we will be able to have several guys that are in or above that range but his job is not to get after the passer. saying that he is not elite because he doesn't have tons of sacks is like saying that ed reed isn't elite because he doesn't tally a monster number of tackles...or like saying patrick willis isn't an elite LB because he only had one sack this past season. ngata's stats are a product of his place in our system and our system's success is a product of ngata's ability to stuff gaps up front. if you, like most schmucks voting for the pro bowl, don't consider ngata elite because he only had one sack this past year, then you obviously don't know enough about the ravens or football in general to be entitled to a vote.




  15. #30

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by baltimore_hokie View Post
    dude, you're not getting what everyone is saying here. ngata IS elite at what he is asked to do. a 3-4 DT is not asked to rush the passer, ngata will never be a 5-10 sack guy in our system (shaun rogers only had 4.5 in a solid season with the brownies this past year, kris jenkins had 3.5). with ngata, we will be able to have several guys that are in or above that range but his job is not to get after the passer. saying that he is not elite because he doesn't have tons of sacks is like saying that ed reed isn't elite because he doesn't tally a monster number of tackles...or like saying patrick willis isn't an elite LB because he only had one sack this past season. ngata's stats are a product of his place in our system and our system's success is a product of ngata's ability to stuff gaps up front. if you, like most schmucks voting for the pro bowl, don't consider ngata elite because he only had one sack this past year, then you obviously don't know enough about the ravens or football in general to be entitled to a vote.
    well said. There are a lot of stat freaks that are able to make the case based on numbers but use the wrong ones. Tackles and sacks do not matter more than defensive ranking, ypc, redzone precentage and points allowed.

    Rex ran some wild scheme stuff from the 3-4 where he asked guys to do what they do best. Rushing the Qb is not what Nagta does best, but on pass plays he still plays a big role in getting the stop. The Raven DT position is more like extra middle linebackers on pass plays that just play an area and react to the O line and either try to free up a blitzer or play a passing lane and spy the QB. Pryce was the only guy that looked like it was his main job at Dt to rush the Qb. The rest of them all seem to come off the ball looking to lock up the guy in front of them and read and react. Classic 2 gap style where if you penetrate too far it open up a hole in the moving pickett fence concept. Rex asked our front guys to move the line of scrimage back a yard then be able to slide side to side in pursuit or stay in your lane and swat down the pass. Nagta took that coaching extremly well and is the main reason Ray is back on top of his game. Nagta makes his reads real easy and lets him and the rest of the linebackers attack down hill almost all the time.




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