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  1. #31

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best



    Quote Originally Posted by baltimore_hokie View Post
    dude, you're not getting what everyone is saying here. ngata IS elite at what he is asked to do. a 3-4 DT is not asked to rush the passer, ngata will never be a 5-10 sack guy in our system (shaun rogers only had 4.5 in a solid season with the brownies this past year, kris jenkins had 3.5). with ngata, we will be able to have several guys that are in or above that range but his job is not to get after the passer. saying that he is not elite because he doesn't have tons of sacks is like saying that ed reed isn't elite because he doesn't tally a monster number of tackles...or like saying patrick willis isn't an elite LB because he only had one sack this past season. ngata's stats are a product of his place in our system and our system's success is a product of ngata's ability to stuff gaps up front. if you, like most schmucks voting for the pro bowl, don't consider ngata elite because he only had one sack this past year, then you obviously don't know enough about the ravens or football in general to be entitled to a vote.
    I hate that. People who think they know more than everybody else and anyone who disagree is just some 'schmuck'. We lined up more 4-3 than 3-4 last year anyway but thats not the point. All that's being said is that Ngata hasn't become elite yet with regards to his pass rushing abilities.

    The only way your arguement carries any weight is if Ngata was at NO POINT, last year asked to rush the passer. Getting to the QB is a part of his game and its the one part of his game he needs to work on. Nobody is expecting a 10 sack season but once he can add getting to the QB (either by Sacks, or Hits and Pressures) then he'll become an even better player. Right now he's top 10. I'd have Haynesworth, Ratliff, Kevin Williams, Stroud, Rodgers, and maybe Kyle Williams above him based on the past season.

    But please, tell me that I don't know enough about the Ravens or the NFL...




  2. #32

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by UKRavenGordon View Post
    I hate that. People who think they know more than everybody else and anyone who disagree is just some 'schmuck'. We lined up more 4-3 than 3-4 last year anyway but thats not the point. All that's being said is that Ngata hasn't become elite yet with regards to his pass rushing abilities.

    The only way your arguement carries any weight is if Ngata was at NO POINT, last year asked to rush the passer. Getting to the QB is a part of his game and its the one part of his game he needs to work on. Nobody is expecting a 10 sack season but once he can add getting to the QB (either by Sacks, or Hits and Pressures) then he'll become an even better player. Right now he's top 10. I'd have Haynesworth, Ratliff, Kevin Williams, Stroud, Rodgers, and maybe Kyle Williams above him based on the past season.

    But please, tell me that I don't know enough about the Ravens or the NFL...
    People take the opinion stuff personal. Wilfork, Hampton and Pat Williams are more comparable players to Nagta. That is the role he plays, not the one gap stuff like Haynesworth, Kevin willaims and guys like that are asked to do. Nagta is supposed to not rush the QB most of the time they tell him to stop, look around, play a passing lane and then be part of the pursuit. When you go after the Qb with your interior Dts, it can get them out of position on draw plays and stuff like traps, screens and such. When they just play the area, they can take on any of those plays and may not get a tfl or sack, but get a 2 yard play and then a 3 and out.




  3. #33
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    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by 52decleetzu View Post
    Could it be because he is wrong??? Maybe?

    Why dont you go read my post over again,with the facts to back up what I said included.

    To put a guy like Jay freaking Ratliff who isnt even a true NT in the mix and Stroud to a lesser degree is ridiculous.Now if you want top put a guy like Jenkins or Rogers in there we could have and argument.

    Either way,Ngata is maybe the 6th best at WORST.But again he is 25 while the others are all 30 and over...I will take Ngata 6 days a week and twice on Sunday over all of those guys.
    Completely agree man.

    I will take Ngata over any of those DT's listed.

    Haynesworth played really hard for a monster contract. We've yet to see if he can continue to play at a high level or if he will go back to being lazy and not playing his arse off every play.

    With Ngata, you know you are getting 100% every play he is on the field for.

    Ngata is the 1 guy that we really need to extend before he realizes that he is better than the guy who just got 100 million dollars.

    He and Justin Bannan are the two main reasons why no one could really run on us last season.
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  4. #34
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    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Lap View Post
    There you go. He should have been number 1 or 2 on the list.
    Shaun Rogers is a blimp on the football field. When he actually feels like mustering the effort to give 100% on the field then he is a darn good DT...problem with him is that he takes plays off and has to come off the field often because of how overweight he is.

    Ngata is 340lbs, but he never looks fat and out of shape. Rogers constantly looks like he is horrible overweight.
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  5. #35

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Who cares what TSN thinks? Ravens are better off if all of these publications don't give Ngata an abundance of credit when it's time to belly up to the bargaining table.

    The time to hesitate is through...No time to wallow in the mire




  6. #36

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mojo Rizon View Post
    Who cares what TSN thinks? Ravens are better off if all of these publications don't give Ngata an abundance of credit when it's time to belly up to the bargaining table.
    Honestly, I don't think the media has even a little bit of impact on how the NFL regards their free agents or what they pay them.

    This is evident from any draft you look at. Tyson Jackson rising to #3. Crabtree falling to #10, behind DHB. Moreno at #12. Larry English at #16. You can go all the way back to Quinn and Rodgers both dropping into the 20s. Where the media rates a guy has no bearing on where an NFL team rates a guy.

    - C -
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    A blog about any and everything football.

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  7. #37

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Honestly, I don't think the media has even a little bit of impact on how the NFL regards their free agents or what they pay them.
    Really? You really think this?

    The media is part of the voting process for post season awards. You don't think those awards have a bearing on what an agent will demand for his client?

    It's time for you to break on through to the other side




  8. #38

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mojo Rizon View Post
    Really? You really think this?

    The media is part of the voting process for post season awards. You don't think those awards have a bearing on what an agent will demand for his client?
    I think Jared Allen didn't win any awards two years ago and still signed a $72MM deal with $31MM guaranteed; at the time the richest deal ever for a defensive player.

    I think this year's DPotY was not Haynesworth, it was Harrison. Yet Haynesworth signed what was effectively a 4 year, $48MM deal with $41MM guaranteed; and Harrison signed a 6 year, $51MM deal with $20MM guaranteed.

    Yeah. I really think the media has very little to do with what these guys get paid.

    - C -
    ---------------------------------------------------

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  9. #39

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Yeah. I really think the media has very little to do with what these guys get paid.
    Both Allen and Haynesworth were All Pros in '07 & '08. How does an NFL player become an All Pro. Hmmm, would you believe a nationwide panel of 50 writers and broadcasters who cover the NFL? I think they are credentialed members of the media.

    But I'm sure that notoriety had absolutely NOTHING to do with either player making all that coin. How naive of me.

    People are strange, When you're a stranger
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  10. #40

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mojo Rizon View Post
    Both Allen and Haynesworth were All Pros in '07 & '08. How does an NFL player become an All Pro. Hmmm, would you believe a nationwide panel of 50 writers and broadcasters who cover the NFL? I think they are credentialed members of the media.

    But I'm sure that notoriety had absolutely NOTHING to do with either player making all that coin. How naive of me.
    Oh come on. You're acting like these guys would be completely unheard to all the other NFL GMs if the media weren't reporting on them! The Pro Bowl players are determined by the coaches, fans and players; that list is virtually the same as the All Pro list. It's not like it's some mystery who's great and who's not. Dan Snyder didn't pick up the paper one morning, see the list of All Pros, and say "Wow, that Haynesworth guy must be pretty good! I think I'll spend twelve mil a year and get me som'a that!"

    So what you're basically saying is that if the media hadn't voted Haynesworth an All Pro last year, that his deal would have been .... ???

    4 years, $36MM? Is 25% enough to consider that enough of an impact on his contract?

    4 years, $42MM?

    4 years, $46MM?

    If Albert Haynesworth wasn't an All Pro last year, I think there's pretty much no chance his deal was anything less than what it was.

    I'm sorry, but media people grossly overestimate their impact on how the NFL operates (or any sport for that matter). This cannot be more clear by the ridiculous abundance of mock drafts in the three months prior to the actual draft, and then the subsequent immediate passing around of draft grades regarding who got the best value in all of their picks.

    The perfect example of this is Cincinnati's draft this year. The media is falling all over themselves fawning over how awesome that draft was. You know what? Some 30ish other GMs passed on Rey Maualuga...some more than once. Same thing for Michael Johnson, except almost all of them passed on the guy more than once. That wasn't an accident. There's a reason he fell where he fell. The media saying he was a huge steal early in the third round is quite simply pretentious. If he was such a gigantic steal, then Chicago would have taken him as their DE two picks earlier. Or the Cardinals eight picks earlier. Or the Ravens 14 picks earlier. Or any of the other 12 teams that passed on him for a position other than DE before the Bengals took him where they did.

    Same thing here. Sorry, I cannot believe that the media has any material impact on what sort of a contract a player gets. Except one potential situation...if the media investigates something and uncovers a huge skeleton in a player's closet. Then yeah, sure they will. Otherwise, no, I don't buy it even a little bit.

    - C -
    ---------------------------------------------------

    www.oblongspheroid.com

    A blog about any and everything football.

    Twitter: oblong_spheroid




  11. #41

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Oh come on. You're acting like these guys would be completely unheard to all the other NFL GMs if the media weren't reporting on them!
    Down boy! Never said this...these are your words...as are these:

    Honestly, I don't think the media has even a little bit of impact on how the NFL regards their free agents or what they pay them.
    That's what I disagree with. The media does impact what these guys are paid. The aren't totally responsible but they have an impact. Moreover bigger media markets attract higher paid players.

    And in case you haven't checked, All Pro is more prestigious than Pro Bowler.

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  12. #42

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by baltimore_hokie View Post
    a 3-4 DT is not asked to rush the passer,

    Are you trying to tell me that he's NOT asked to rush the passer? That's right I forgot. He's supposed to stand there and count 1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi..If you asked any of the Ravens coaches they would disagree with you on that.

    Any evaluation of any defensive lineman must include their ability to rush the passer. The reason why your evaluation of Ngata is unsound is because you aren't factoring in a vital aspect of the position.

    He's almost elite as a NT but not quite there yet.

    Oh, sorry I forgot I'm not entitled to an opinion.




  13. #43

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    i'm saying that his primary task is to eat up blockers so that the other lineman/linebackers are at an advantage rushing the passer. he is asked to be huge and occupy multiple lineman, rather than be quick off the ball to rush the passer. look around the league at the other elite 3-4 DT's and they have a max of 5 sacks. the majority of the time, ngata collapsing the pocket would open up the middle of the defense to traps, screens, etc rather than producing sacks anyway. every play, we can count on the middle of the defense being clogged up and in place, that wall that ngata creates would not be there to solidify our defense and run game if he in constantly in the backfield. all i'm saying is that you can't compare stats from players from different systems equally, it's apples and oranges to look at fat albert's sacks vs ngata's sacks (like i said in previous posts looking at patrick willis, 4-3 MLB vs. 3-4 MLB, and ed reed vs other safeties). and if you think marcus stroud is really better than ngata, well i really don't need to continue this conversation.




  14. #44

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Lap View Post
    Are you trying to tell me that he's NOT asked to rush the passer? That's right I forgot. He's supposed to stand there and count 1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi..I think if you asked any of the Ravens coaches they would disagree with you on that.

    Any evaluation of any defensive lineman must include their ability to rush the passer. The reason why your evaluation of Ngata is unsound is because you aren't factoring that in appropriately.
    What Nagta did on the play he got the pick vs the Texans is what he is coached to do when he reads pass. Stay in his lane and become a pass defender, not a pass rusher. The Raven DTs other than Pryce seem to stop rushing and play zone D when they read pass.

    It does make sense when you see the rest of the D. They like to drop the LBs in coverage and need some help with the draws, screens and drag routes. Our Dts make a ton of tackles in pursuit because they do not get tangled up in a pass rush. I think that is also why BIg B is able to beat our blitz, because there is only one guy there to hit him and he has room to step up and avoid them with not much DT pressure pushing the pocket.
    Philly and the Titans were kicking the crap out of Ben with the Dts getting to him up the middle when he held the ball and tried to step up. The Titans did it without Haynesworth.

    Nagta should be able to get to the Qb more often than he has, and I think even if the new DC does not tell him to rush the Qb more his agent will.

    I think both Nagta and Suggs could get much better sack numbers in more of a 4-3 one gap attacking kind of scheme, and I think this DC will use a little more of those looks on passing downs and use different pressure packages than Rex.




  15. #45

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    [QUOTE= and if you think marcus stroud is really better than ngata, well i really don't need to continue this conversation.[/QUOTE]

    I never said word one about Marcus Stroud. Where did you get that?

    As far as continuing this conversation, why would I want to end it when you've been so delightful to talk with?




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