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  1. #25
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    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best



    What I saw of Ratliff was quite impressive, I thought.

    As for those big runs... I can only remember the Willis run in good detail. The nose got double teamed out of the hole by Brown face-up and Chester on an excellent down-block. That play was much more a result of the defense playing up in the box, leaving the safeties taking shallow angles.




  2. #26
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    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by effo5231 View Post
    Two things, 1. Ngata isn't supposed to be rushing the QB in our scheme... He's supposed to be eating blockers so Suggs, Gooden, Ray, and JJ can eat QBs. 2... Name the ones you think are better than Ngata.
    That's right on Effo. When the Ravens had 60 sacks in 2006, Ngata (1 sack) was 2nd on the team to JJ (1.5 sacks) in sacks as a percentage of pass plays while they were in the game. The majority of those were eating doubles so the Ravens could free Scott, Pryce, Suggs, and Thomas to beat singles. Ngata accomplished it with mass and explosiveness, JJ with tremendous fakes dropping into coverage.

    Stockers,

    I certainly respect your opinion re Ngata given the amount of time you spend with the video, but I'd disagree on this one. I think he did not have quite the year in 2008 that he did in 2007, but he remains the primary reason you can't run on the Ravens. That ability is particularly important to a defense with poor tacklers in the secondary like the 2009 Ravens without Landry and with Reed ailing for the first 8-10 games. I know you like him as much as I do as a run defender.

    As to his value to the pass defense, I have to ask if that's based on the way he grades out by the system on profootballfocus.com (a site I highly recommend, BTW)? I don't know how Neil's system credits a DT who takes a double when another pass rusher gets a sack, QH, or pressure by beating a single. He is not Haynesworth or Sapp or Rodgers as a pass rusher, but I'm not convinced he doesn't create similar opportunities for others.




  3. #27

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by Filmstudy View Post
    That's right on Effo. When the Ravens had 60 sacks in 2006, Ngata (1 sack) was 2nd on the team to JJ (1.5 sacks) in sacks as a percentage of pass plays while they were in the game. The majority of those were eating doubles so the Ravens could free Scott, Pryce, Suggs, and Thomas to beat singles. Ngata accomplished it with mass and explosiveness, JJ with tremendous fakes dropping into coverage.

    Stockers,

    I certainly respect your opinion re Ngata given the amount of time you spend with the video, but I'd disagree on this one. I think he did not have quite the year in 2008 that he did in 2007, but he remains the primary reason you can't run on the Ravens. That ability is particularly important to a defense with poor tacklers in the secondary like the 2009 Ravens without Landry and with Reed ailing for the first 8-10 games. I know you like him as much as I do as a run defender.

    As to his value to the pass defense, I have to ask if that's based on the way he grades out by the system on profootballfocus.com (a site I highly recommend, BTW)? I don't know how Neil's system credits a DT who takes a double when another pass rusher gets a sack, QH, or pressure by beating a single. He is not Haynesworth or Sapp or Rodgers as a pass rusher, but I'm not convinced he doesn't create similar opportunities for others.
    good stuff.

    What Nagta does is beat his man and hold his ground even when doubled. The Ravens were able to double Rattliff and root him right out of the way when they knew we were running. Tha does not happen to us because Nagta explodes into the first guy and disrupts any kind of possible stretch or pull play, and allows Ray to scrape off his back where ever the ball goes, down hill and behind or at the line.

    Those 3rd and short situations are game changing, and Nagta makes a ton of them as well as forcing a lot of the 3rd and longs that create direct turnovers and sacks.




  4. #28

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswarrior19 View Post
    In terms of physical abilities, Shawn Rodgers was one of my top 3 DTs last year. His level of play, when he's on, is probably second to none. .
    There you go. He should have been number 1 or 2 on the list.

    UKStockers is right. Ngata hasn't shown that he can rush the passer yet. He's still young and can improve in this area. Filmstudy, I don't watch as much film as you, but I don't remember Ngata taking many doubles on pass protection. I recall that Trevor Pryce seemed to draw them consistently in the first 2/3 of the season.

    His dropping back into coverage was cool but only works if he's directly between the QB and his receiver. Let's face it, he's not going to do any serious scampering around in the secondary. We need him to rush the passer better.

    He IS a stud, no doubt about it but he's not elite yet....




  5. #29

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Lap View Post
    There you go. He should have been number 1 or 2 on the list.

    UKStockers is right. Ngata hasn't shown that he can rush the passer yet. He's still young and can improve in this area. Filmstudy, I don't watch as much film as you, but I don't remember Ngata taking many doubles on pass protection. I recall that Trevor Pryce seemed to draw them consistently in the first 2/3 of the season.

    His dropping back into coverage was cool but only works if he's directly between the QB and his receiver. Let's face it, he's not going to do any serious scampering around in the secondary. We need him to rush the passer better.

    He IS a stud, no doubt about it but he's not elite yet....
    dude, you're not getting what everyone is saying here. ngata IS elite at what he is asked to do. a 3-4 DT is not asked to rush the passer, ngata will never be a 5-10 sack guy in our system (shaun rogers only had 4.5 in a solid season with the brownies this past year, kris jenkins had 3.5). with ngata, we will be able to have several guys that are in or above that range but his job is not to get after the passer. saying that he is not elite because he doesn't have tons of sacks is like saying that ed reed isn't elite because he doesn't tally a monster number of tackles...or like saying patrick willis isn't an elite LB because he only had one sack this past season. ngata's stats are a product of his place in our system and our system's success is a product of ngata's ability to stuff gaps up front. if you, like most schmucks voting for the pro bowl, don't consider ngata elite because he only had one sack this past year, then you obviously don't know enough about the ravens or football in general to be entitled to a vote.




  6. #30

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by baltimore_hokie View Post
    dude, you're not getting what everyone is saying here. ngata IS elite at what he is asked to do. a 3-4 DT is not asked to rush the passer, ngata will never be a 5-10 sack guy in our system (shaun rogers only had 4.5 in a solid season with the brownies this past year, kris jenkins had 3.5). with ngata, we will be able to have several guys that are in or above that range but his job is not to get after the passer. saying that he is not elite because he doesn't have tons of sacks is like saying that ed reed isn't elite because he doesn't tally a monster number of tackles...or like saying patrick willis isn't an elite LB because he only had one sack this past season. ngata's stats are a product of his place in our system and our system's success is a product of ngata's ability to stuff gaps up front. if you, like most schmucks voting for the pro bowl, don't consider ngata elite because he only had one sack this past year, then you obviously don't know enough about the ravens or football in general to be entitled to a vote.
    well said. There are a lot of stat freaks that are able to make the case based on numbers but use the wrong ones. Tackles and sacks do not matter more than defensive ranking, ypc, redzone precentage and points allowed.

    Rex ran some wild scheme stuff from the 3-4 where he asked guys to do what they do best. Rushing the Qb is not what Nagta does best, but on pass plays he still plays a big role in getting the stop. The Raven DT position is more like extra middle linebackers on pass plays that just play an area and react to the O line and either try to free up a blitzer or play a passing lane and spy the QB. Pryce was the only guy that looked like it was his main job at Dt to rush the Qb. The rest of them all seem to come off the ball looking to lock up the guy in front of them and read and react. Classic 2 gap style where if you penetrate too far it open up a hole in the moving pickett fence concept. Rex asked our front guys to move the line of scrimage back a yard then be able to slide side to side in pursuit or stay in your lane and swat down the pass. Nagta took that coaching extremly well and is the main reason Ray is back on top of his game. Nagta makes his reads real easy and lets him and the rest of the linebackers attack down hill almost all the time.




  7. #31

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by baltimore_hokie View Post
    dude, you're not getting what everyone is saying here. ngata IS elite at what he is asked to do. a 3-4 DT is not asked to rush the passer, ngata will never be a 5-10 sack guy in our system (shaun rogers only had 4.5 in a solid season with the brownies this past year, kris jenkins had 3.5). with ngata, we will be able to have several guys that are in or above that range but his job is not to get after the passer. saying that he is not elite because he doesn't have tons of sacks is like saying that ed reed isn't elite because he doesn't tally a monster number of tackles...or like saying patrick willis isn't an elite LB because he only had one sack this past season. ngata's stats are a product of his place in our system and our system's success is a product of ngata's ability to stuff gaps up front. if you, like most schmucks voting for the pro bowl, don't consider ngata elite because he only had one sack this past year, then you obviously don't know enough about the ravens or football in general to be entitled to a vote.
    I hate that. People who think they know more than everybody else and anyone who disagree is just some 'schmuck'. We lined up more 4-3 than 3-4 last year anyway but thats not the point. All that's being said is that Ngata hasn't become elite yet with regards to his pass rushing abilities.

    The only way your arguement carries any weight is if Ngata was at NO POINT, last year asked to rush the passer. Getting to the QB is a part of his game and its the one part of his game he needs to work on. Nobody is expecting a 10 sack season but once he can add getting to the QB (either by Sacks, or Hits and Pressures) then he'll become an even better player. Right now he's top 10. I'd have Haynesworth, Ratliff, Kevin Williams, Stroud, Rodgers, and maybe Kyle Williams above him based on the past season.

    But please, tell me that I don't know enough about the Ravens or the NFL...




  8. #32

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by UKRavenGordon View Post
    I hate that. People who think they know more than everybody else and anyone who disagree is just some 'schmuck'. We lined up more 4-3 than 3-4 last year anyway but thats not the point. All that's being said is that Ngata hasn't become elite yet with regards to his pass rushing abilities.

    The only way your arguement carries any weight is if Ngata was at NO POINT, last year asked to rush the passer. Getting to the QB is a part of his game and its the one part of his game he needs to work on. Nobody is expecting a 10 sack season but once he can add getting to the QB (either by Sacks, or Hits and Pressures) then he'll become an even better player. Right now he's top 10. I'd have Haynesworth, Ratliff, Kevin Williams, Stroud, Rodgers, and maybe Kyle Williams above him based on the past season.

    But please, tell me that I don't know enough about the Ravens or the NFL...
    People take the opinion stuff personal. Wilfork, Hampton and Pat Williams are more comparable players to Nagta. That is the role he plays, not the one gap stuff like Haynesworth, Kevin willaims and guys like that are asked to do. Nagta is supposed to not rush the QB most of the time they tell him to stop, look around, play a passing lane and then be part of the pursuit. When you go after the Qb with your interior Dts, it can get them out of position on draw plays and stuff like traps, screens and such. When they just play the area, they can take on any of those plays and may not get a tfl or sack, but get a 2 yard play and then a 3 and out.




  9. #33
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    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by 52decleetzu View Post
    Could it be because he is wrong??? Maybe?

    Why dont you go read my post over again,with the facts to back up what I said included.

    To put a guy like Jay freaking Ratliff who isnt even a true NT in the mix and Stroud to a lesser degree is ridiculous.Now if you want top put a guy like Jenkins or Rogers in there we could have and argument.

    Either way,Ngata is maybe the 6th best at WORST.But again he is 25 while the others are all 30 and over...I will take Ngata 6 days a week and twice on Sunday over all of those guys.
    Completely agree man.

    I will take Ngata over any of those DT's listed.

    Haynesworth played really hard for a monster contract. We've yet to see if he can continue to play at a high level or if he will go back to being lazy and not playing his arse off every play.

    With Ngata, you know you are getting 100% every play he is on the field for.

    Ngata is the 1 guy that we really need to extend before he realizes that he is better than the guy who just got 100 million dollars.

    He and Justin Bannan are the two main reasons why no one could really run on us last season.
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  10. #34
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    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Lap View Post
    There you go. He should have been number 1 or 2 on the list.
    Shaun Rogers is a blimp on the football field. When he actually feels like mustering the effort to give 100% on the field then he is a darn good DT...problem with him is that he takes plays off and has to come off the field often because of how overweight he is.

    Ngata is 340lbs, but he never looks fat and out of shape. Rogers constantly looks like he is horrible overweight.
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  11. #35

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Who cares what TSN thinks? Ravens are better off if all of these publications don't give Ngata an abundance of credit when it's time to belly up to the bargaining table.

    The time to hesitate is through...No time to wallow in the mire




  12. #36

    Re: Sporting News Today - Ngata 4th best

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mojo Rizon View Post
    Who cares what TSN thinks? Ravens are better off if all of these publications don't give Ngata an abundance of credit when it's time to belly up to the bargaining table.
    Honestly, I don't think the media has even a little bit of impact on how the NFL regards their free agents or what they pay them.

    This is evident from any draft you look at. Tyson Jackson rising to #3. Crabtree falling to #10, behind DHB. Moreno at #12. Larry English at #16. You can go all the way back to Quinn and Rodgers both dropping into the 20s. Where the media rates a guy has no bearing on where an NFL team rates a guy.

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