April '09 - Wall Street's best month in 9 years

[Greg]

I think the knee jerk reaction is against conservative fiscal policy which most agree is not the way out of this recession nor was it the way out of the great depression....as most historians would agree.

Conservative fiscal policy's argument to further shrink an already recessed economy isn't getting a lot of love from most of the economists. The only people touting it right now are the millionaire conservative pundits that like Rush who just said, "I just refuse to participate in the recession". Sooner or later the rest of the 21% of the country that still buys that load of crap will also reject it.

You obviously are very sure in your viewpoints.

That's fine. You are so sure you are arguing things I have not even posted about.

I was talking about monetary policy, which is neither conservative nor liberal and is handled by the Fed. The last 3 Fed Chairs have served under both party's administrations.

The handling of our currency is the biggest reason we are in this mess and is the biggest thing we should be concerned about right now, conservative or liberal. If we inflate our way out of this problem, which is the course the Fed is going and the Obama administration is cheerleading along and participating in with the massive spending (and isn't all that different in terms of policy from Bush or Clinton or Bush), then we are headed for a huge crisis with our currency which could bring down our government.

In history not one government has survived the devaluation of its currency. The Chinese and others are calling for a global currency to get off of the dollar as the standard. This should be a huge red flag, yet instead of protecting our currency we are making it worth less by the minute.

Go ahead and call conservatives more names and talk up Obama, it has nothing to do with the root problem. We have run up massive debt because of our fiscal policy under Greenspan and Bernanke and this has been encouraged by both parties. We are now left with no way to pay our obligations and will effectively declare bankruptcy by cancelling the debts with inflation. It won't end well.

[jonboy79]

I hope that it doesn't end with WWIII when China comes for their's....

[Galen Sevinne]

You guys are listening too much to Michelle Malkin and Bachmann - if you seriously think there is going to be an international currency replacing the dollar.

I think even Glenn Beck dropped that one a couple weeks ago.

The argument still remains whether you spend your way out of a recession or freeze all spending as way of getting out. History, as well as currently, seems to point towards increased spending as the way out.

[Rochardrik]

Crime among your average American did not go up. The gangs dealing in illegal booze and their fights were the cause of crime rates going up. Save a guy here or there stealing a watermelon for his family to eat, crime did not go up among your average American in the 30s.

Nobody starved either. Yes, there were soup lines and the like, but again, nobody starved.

And despite your claims, murder/suicide among families is higher now, and even recently when the economy was good.

AAMOF, I have read that crime rates (even when including the illegal booze trade) went down from the 20s to the 30s.


Your opinion. Mine, the New Deal lengthened the Great Depression.

Above I was talking about fiscal policy of the Fed and it had nothing to do with liberalism vs. conservatism. You guys can't see past that and simply knee-jerk responses in defense of Obama.

We are headed for hyper-inflation.

Can you back this up? Crime DID go up, especially among your average Joes. Indeed, at the same time, farmers were being ousted from their lands in the Northeast, in the southwest, (my grandfather was a sharecropper and lost three farms). At the same time, the dust storms occured in the midwest... There were a lot of factors that figured in. But to say the New Deal did not help is like playing ostrich. You have a very limited view of the time, to say that nobody starved... There were MILLIONS who either stole or did not eat. Towns who were thought to have jobs were beset upon by people seeking employment, and vigilante posses would drive them out with violence.. so they wouldn't take the few jobs that there were. The FAT CATS had a heyday. You either worked for a pittance, or not at all. The programs FDR started saved millions from this plight. Maryland started the first state road org in America (1908 ..StateRoad Commission, now State Highway Administration) When the New Deal programs started, We were the beneficiary of road building (Baltimore to York, Baltimore to DC, etc.) Contractors were instructed to, and did, hire thousands.. They built roads with picks and shovels... literally. The programs were a lifesaver to thousands.. For you and your cohorts to ignore that is tantamount to sticking your head in the sand.... literally. Our government was to do nothing and wait for the Criminal Stock Market investors to care for the poor, out of work? ... Yes I said criminal... insider trading was not illegal, and ALL the average joe investors in the market( there were more average joes in the market then than today) were wiped out....literally.
It seems your knowledge of the Great Depression comes from revisionist history, written by politicos without regard for human consequence.
I'm flabbergasted!

[Greg]

You guys are listening too much to Michelle Malkin and Bachmann - if you seriously think there is going to be an international currency replacing the dollar.

I don't listen to any talking heads, so your accusations are nothing more than more talking points. I don't even know who Bachmann is.

I read things from people in finance. I also understand it enough to know that we are destroying our currency.

You can't spend your way to prosperity. No nation or person ever has, so whatever history you are referring to you are interpreting incorrectly.

Can you back this up? Crime DID go up, . . .

Well, you made the initial claim in this area, can you back your claim up?

http://www.jrsainfo.org/programs/Historical.pdf

Check page 36 to note how from 1933 to the early 40s crime was decreasing year over year. Stats before 1933 are sketchy because nobody was tracking national rates before then.

Murder rates were tracked, and following that graph you can see murder rates after 1933 dropped until the end of WWII.

It is widely believed that the economic difficulties of the times brought Americans together which led to the decrease in crime.

[Rochardrik]

I don't listen to any talking heads, so your accusations are nothing more than more talking points. I don't even know who Bachmann is.

I read things from people in finance. I also understand it enough to know that we are destroying our currency.

You can't spend your way to prosperity. No nation or person ever has, so whatever history you are referring to you are interpreting incorrectly.


Well, you made the initial claim in this area, can you back your claim up?

http://www.jrsainfo.org/programs/Historical.pdf

Check page 36 to note how from 1933 to the early 40s crime was decreasing year over year. Stats before 1933 are sketchy because nobody was tracking national rates before then.

Murder rates were tracked, and following that graph you can see murder rates after 1933 dropped until the end of WWII.

It is widely believed that the economic difficulties of the times brought Americans together which led to the decrease in crime.

And just WHEN did the New Deal programs begin?.....Drumroll please, ......... 1933... Your "evidence" only disproves the point you are trying to make. When The CCC was started, crime rates (theft, etc), dropped by 50%.

[Greg]

And just WHEN did the New Deal programs begin?.....Drumroll please, ......... 1933... Your "evidence" only disproves the point you are trying to make. When The CCC was started, crime rates (theft, etc), dropped by 50%.

Well, that was sure a nice change of direction.

You indicated poverty caused crime, it doesn't.

Poverty doesn't cause poor behavior, poor behavior causes poverty.

[Dade]

Well, that was sure a nice change of direction.

You indicated poverty caused crime, it doesn't.

Poverty doesn't cause poor behavior, poor behavior causes poverty.

Really? It seems to me that the most poverty stricken areas of the country have the worst crime rates.

[Greg]

Really? It seems to me that the most poverty stricken areas of the country have the worst crime rates.

You are correct. And the poor behavior of having children out of wedlock, COMMITTING CRIMES, not completing school, doing drugs, etc - these things lead to the poverty you see.

Poverty doesn't make you behave poorly, behaving poorly puts you in poverty.

99.5% of people born into poverty who finish high school, get married and stay married and get ANY job at all get out of poverty. No magic bullets, nothing terribly difficult here, just standard decent behavior at a minimum level. This was published in The Economist (hardly a right-leaning publication) and republished in The Great Reckoning.

[Rochardrik]

You are correct. And the poor behavior of having children out of wedlock, COMMITTING CRIMES, not completing school, doing drugs, etc - these things lead to the poverty you see.

Poverty doesn't make you behave poorly, behaving poorly puts you in poverty.

99.5% of people born into poverty who finish high school, get married and stay married and get ANY job at all get out of poverty. No magic bullets, nothing terribly difficult here, just standard decent behavior at a minimum level. This was published in The Economist (hardly a right-leaning publication) and republished in The Great Reckoning.

99.5 % of people who FINISH HIGH SCHOOL!!!! What is the percentage of people born into poverty who finish High School? This argument is completely baseless!!! Many more people who are born into poverty do NOT graduate than do those who are NOT born into poverty. Wow! talk about twisting the facts to conveniently support your view!!!! Try a pertinent stat.... Like what percentage of those born into poverty graduate as compared to what percentage graduate that are NOT born into poverty, and the stat you quote here will be meaningless!.... And THEN start comparing poverty effects. Don't tell me that.... to cite your own category... that the number of people having babies out of wedlock is the same for middle class as it is for poor. That's just not the case! The more I think about your post the dumber it seems... No offense, please! Read the first paragraph of your own post! It totally contradicts your point!

[jonboy79]

99.5 % of people who FINISH HIGH SCHOOL!!!! What is the percentage of people born into poverty who finish High School? This argument is completely baseless!!! Many more people who are born into poverty do NOT graduate than do those who are NOT born into poverty. Wow! talk about twisting the facts to conveniently support your view!!!! Try a pertinent stat.... Like what percentage of those born into poverty graduate as compared to what percentage graduate that are NOT born into poverty, and the stat you quote here will be meaningless!.... And THEN start comparing poverty effects. Don't tell me that.... to cite your own category... that the number of people having babies out of wedlock is the same for middle class as it is for poor. That's just not the case! The more I think about your post the dumber it seems... No offense, please! Read the first paragraph of your own post! It totally contradicts your point!

You COMPLETELY missed the point.
That is the point, that povery breeds poverty because these people DON'T take a few small steps to get themselves out of their situation. They bring themselves down, it really is that simple. Get a Diploma, a wife, a job, and don't LOSE any of them and you won't be poor.
And yet, SO FEW follow such a simple plan...
One can ONLY blame themselves for remaining poor for generations.

[Dade]

You COMPLETELY missed the point.
That is the point, that povery breeds poverty because these people DON'T take a few small steps to get themselves out of their situation. They bring themselves down, it really is that simple. Get a Diploma, a wife, a job, and don't LOSE any of them and you won't be poor.
And yet, SO FEW follow such a simple plan...
One can ONLY blame themselves for remaining poor for generations.

I see what your saying but it isn't as easy as that sometimes. My cousin lives in SE DC, has for his entire laugh. My aunt (his mom) was a coke head and never around, and Lord only knows where his dad was. He's the oldest of 5. When my aunt would disappear for months it was up to him to take care of his sisters and brothers. He dropped out of middle school and has been working 2-3 jobs since. The youngest sibling just graduated high school in '05. My cousin is now 33 years old, works 2 minimum wage jobs and lives in the same shack. How is he supposed to escape this poverty? On the other hand his four siblings all graduated high school, 2 are in the military and the others are in community college.