Why the McNair gravy train has peaked, and I'm off that bandwagon

[skaybaltimore]

It's hard to argue with anything you've said, CBD.



GO RAVENS!!!

[skaybaltimore]

Well, they both have balls. ROFL

Odd. You're usually one of the few people here who can actually think for himself.

GO RAVENS!!!

[copenhaggard]

Quote:
Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
Well, they both have balls. ROFL


Odd. You're usually one of the few people here who can actually think for himself.

Uh oh Stinger, I wouldn't want to get on skay's shitlist, he might question your football knowledge.

It's hard to argue with anything you've said, CBD.

Oh, usually you're one of the posters that actually thinks for himself, my bad. So, you're so full of football knowledge you have nothing to add? What a "dynamic discussion" (coined by everyone's favorite skay) you've added.

Only to stupid fucking assholes who don't even understand the difference between what Caldwell did tonight (1 dropped pass IN THE END ZONE, and 1 dropped pass when he was split right with NOBODY COVERING HIM, and a clear shot to the end zone) and what happened to Heap and Clayton. The rough analogy to tennis shouldn't have even been necessary in the first place, but your ability to understand what actually happens on a football field is so limited I thought it might help you fill in the gaps in your gray matter. Obviously, nothing will help in that regard.

GO RAVENS!!!

Aren't you the guy bitching about not enough civility on this board?

I see, anyways...

Yeah, I don't see the difference. I'm sorry, but dropping a pass, to fumbling the ball are all the same, mistakes. Ask Heap/Clayton about if whether their mistakes were "forced", and it takes anything away from the mistakes, and they'd say no. Putting the ball away, to concentrating more on catching the pass are all things that stop mistakes/turnovers/drops from being made.

About me knowing nothing about football...

How about you tell all of us what exactly your football experience is, and what you know about football, since you're quick to dish out how "you know nothing about football" to people who have opinions contrary to yours. I guarentee if you pulled your geriatric ass out of your wheelchair onto the football field, all your tough talk would disappear faster than your head getting buried in the ground. You see, I can tell by how you post you don't understand the team aspect, or what football is really about. You come here trying to "educate" all the stupid people here, when in fact, you're the one getting the education. 90% of the people on this board know more about football than you, and about %1 act like you, except the %1 that does knows their shit.

You see, I understand your point of view on "unforced/forced" errors (though I don't agree), but I am just going to keep arguing it, because you're little outbursts are hilarious. When you have to start calling people "fucking assholes" and such, I know I have you reeling.

[ExiledRaven]

Well, the colts game was rough. McNair didn't play really well, but we had a fumble by clayton that lost a 40 yard gain, a fumble by Heap that we're lucky didn't result in a TD. Lots of passes 2-3 yards short of the stick....not to mention the int around the colt 30 and on the goaline.

McNair is back next year starting, no matter how much we talk, complain, scream, or say boller can throw 50 yards while at the same time tripping over his own feet.

While the Ravens did very well this year, we have a few serious problems. McNair is probably good for 1-2 more years, tops. Let's be honest. Next, do we stick with Boller or are we going to go shopping? If we go shopping we've got a problem, you're not getting a franchise QB at #25+ in the draft.

Ok, so Brady was a 6th rounder, i know. But who is explosive? They're typically high picks, Manning, Palmer. Of course, you might draft Joey Harrington.

There is also the possibiliy david carr is going to be available, most of his problems have been no protection and no running game...he might be someone to bring in. Then you have carr and boller competing to be the starter of the future and the loser is #2. Probably a bad idea, but that's why i'm a fan. Either way, he's got an arm, isn't totally awful, and can move around more that johnny mcstatute.

I am still laughing that our offense lost the game for us while they were playing "not to lose" football. Knife me.

[Baltoman07]

Agree 100% Exiled. How could McNair play it safe with 3 yard passes and still give the damn game away? That was hard on the eyes.

[ClericBlackDave]

Agree 100% Exiled. How could McNair play it safe with 3 yard passes and still give the damn game away? That was hard on the eyes.

I think that is the worse part.


If you're goign to bring in McNair to play super-DilferBall, you would expect that with him throwing short safe passes 3 yards short of the 1st down, he wouldn't have gifted the game away to the colts.


2 INTs that were drive killers and relatively unforced . . . and no explosive play other than the Mark Clayton catch that was fumbled . . .


Is there blame on Heap and Clayton? Of course. But Heap was taking a hard hit, and I can't blame him. Clayton, I can't really blame him either.


If those picks McNair threw were under duress or something, I'd be more likely to give him a muligan.


Overall, my gripe is that I'd rather see the Ravens play explosive on offense with passing down the field, mistakes and all.


In Boller's last game, I didn't mind the INT (which Mason called for the ball when double covered) if it means that Boller connects on a 80 yards play to D Will


Overall, vets are going to get next year to get another crack at it; then I want them gone.


And call me crazy, but I dont mind if Ogden retires, I actually prefer that. I need someone who's heart is in it, additionally, I want youth on the o-line. Some guys that are young and need to craft their legacy (like Boller). Ogden already has his legacy and doesn't need much to improve on it.

[purplepoe]

I think that is the worse part.


If you're goign to bring in McNair to play super-DilferBall, you would expect that with him throwing short safe passes 3 yards short of the 1st down, he wouldn't have gifted the game away to the colts.


2 INTs that were drive killers and relatively unforced . . . and no explosive play other than the Mark Clayton catch that was fumbled . . .


Is there blame on Heap and Clayton? Of course. But Heap was taking a hard hit, and I can't blame him. Clayton, I can't really blame him either.


If those picks McNair threw were under duress or something, I'd be more likely to give him a muligan.


Overall, my gripe is that I'd rather see the Ravens play explosive on offense with passing down the field, mistakes and all.


In Boller's last game, I didn't mind the INT (which Mason called for the ball when double covered) if it means that Boller connects on a 80 yards play to D Will


Overall, vets are going to get next year to get another crack at it; then I want them gone.


And call me crazy, but I dont mind if Ogden retires, I actually prefer that. I need someone who's heart is in it, additionally, I want youth on the o-line. Some guys that are young and need to craft their legacy (like Boller). Ogden already has his legacy and doesn't need much to improve on it.

Well at least your honest.

You don't blame Heap or Clayton for their fumbles. Can you not see the stunning irony in your statement?

You seem to want to excuse a Boller INT because Mason called for the ball? Should we give them each a half on INT? How about the QB makes the right decision based on if the pass should be thrown.

Seeing as you want to play explosive football despite mistakes, I'd suggest you take a look at how that works. See the Oakland Raiders.

You would prefer that Ogden, who played his best football in years in 2006, retire. That's great Dave. Are you insinuating that his heart hasn't or won't be in it if he decides to come back? Of all people, Ogden worries me the least in that respect. He has his money and he has his legacy. If he comes back, it's for one thing. And that's a ring. You better believe his heart will be in it.

Speaking of legacy's. Maybe you should take a step back from talking about a legacy for Boller. How about some semblance of consistency first? That would be nice.

PP

[copenhaggard]

2 INTs that were drive killers and relatively unforced . . . and no explosive play other than the Mark Clayton catch that was fumbled . . .


Is there blame on Heap and Clayton? Of course. But Heap was taking a hard hit, and I can't blame him. Clayton, I can't really blame him either.


If those picks McNair threw were under duress or something, I'd be more likely to give him a muligan.


Overall, my gripe is that I'd rather see the Ravens play explosive on offense with passing down the field, mistakes and all.


In Boller's last game, I didn't mind the INT (which Mason called for the ball when double covered) if it means that Boller connects on a 80 yards play to D Will


And call me crazy, but I dont mind if Ogden retires, I actually prefer that. I need someone who's heart is in it, additionally, I want youth on the o-line. Some guys that are young and need to craft their legacy (like Boller). Ogden already has his legacy and doesn't need much to improve on it.

I don't see the correlation with less blame because an error was "unforced". Heap tucks the ball in better, he doesn't fumble. Same with Clayton. The blame is equal. You are saying since the defender made a great play, the turnover counts "less", or less blame should be handed out. Well, what if the defender made a great play on the McNair picks, or the coach called a superb defensive play, or our offensive play was horrible for the coverage we were given.

It's funny that 1/2 of our total offensive turnovers weren't as "bad" as McNair's two turnovers, when they all were the same thing. The culmination of those turnovers and lack of execution of the gameplan, all led to a truly disgusting offensive performance.

It's all subjective, and no matter what, 1/2 of our turnovers were our receivers fumbling, and both were drive/big play killers.

I love how you mention the Boller pick, but then "shift" part of the blame to Mason, because he called for the ball. Yeah, it's Mason's fault that Boller threw it. Real subtle there Dave.

Let me ask you, how can you tell Ogden's heart is not in the game? He has never been a vocal fiery guy, so I can't see how you believe his heart wasn't there. If his heart isn't in it, he won't be coming back, so I don't see how you'd think he'd come back if his heart wasn't in it. About youth on the OLINE...I didn't see much of an indication that Ogden's old age really caught up to this year either. If anyone, Ogden would be the last person on the line I'd want gone. He has provided stablity at a premiere position for a long time.

Yeah, about the Boller legacy thing...He has a legacy, and the FO doesn't seem too enthuased about it. Maybe he'll get another chance, but it depends on the draft, and how his contract is handled.

[ClericBlackDave]

I see we're still down to make excuses for the McNair miscues.


There was nothing there on those plays besides McNair missing open guys. And there wasn't pressure on either occasion. Thats an unforced error to me.


Heap and Clayton I can give a mulligan because and least defenders were hitting them and whatnot.


Re: Ogden, i stick to my point on that. I'd rather have terry in there and start Chester and Brown and maybe even another new player than to bring back Flynn and Mulitalo as starters just to beg Ogden to come back.


If he really wants to play for us, cool; but if there are requirements or caveats, it just wreaks to me of his heart not being in it


My fear with the vets, especially the ones that really have established legacies, is that they dont really REALLY care what happens one way or the other


Same fear I have with McNair. Nothing I've seen or heard says to me that the 2 INTs 170 were really bothering McNair, even after the fact. The man will retire a Titan. Tough for me think that his career in Baltimore will be his defining moment.

[purplepoe]

I see we're still down to make excuses for the McNair miscues.


There was nothing there on those plays besides McNair missing open guys. And there wasn't pressure on either occasion. Thats an unforced error to me.


Heap and Clayton I can give a mulligan because and least defenders were hitting them and whatnot.


Re: Ogden, i stick to my point on that. I'd rather have terry in there and start Chester and Brown and maybe even another new player than to bring back Flynn and Mulitalo as starters just to beg Ogden to come back.


If he really wants to play for us, cool; but if there are requirements or caveats, it just wreaks to me of his heart not being in it


My fear with the vets, especially the ones that really have established legacies, is that they dont really REALLY care what happens one way or the other


Same fear I have with McNair. Nothing I've seen or heard says to me that the 2 INTs 170 were really bothering McNair, even after the fact. The man will retire a Titan. Tough for me think that his career in Baltimore will be his defining moment.

What the hell are you talking about? YOU are the ones making excuses for the other guys.

McNair played like shit Dave. We are all acknowleding that. What you are doing is not acknowledging the other players' mistakes and how that affect the game. You flat out said it. I have NEVER said McNair played well nor have I made any excuse for his play.

Now you are just making stuff up in your head about Ogden. Requirements and caveats? What, just because he wants to see how the offseason pans out as a part of his decision means his heart isn't in it? Just stop. It's embarassing that you are questioning a guy like Ogden.

And what do you want McNair to do? All you've done is brought up how he's really a Titan and not a "real" Raven. What do you want? Different quotes? Here is what he said after the game.

"To end on a shorter note than you intended ... it's very heartbreaking," McNair said. "Do I feel bad? Of course I feel bad. I feel bad that we lost. I feel the way I played. There can only be one champion. Unfortunately, this year isn't our year."

"Our defense played great and they gave us a lot of opportunities," said McNair, who was 18-for-29 for 173 yards and a quarterback rating of 49.9. "We didn't take advantage of those opportunities and it starts with the quarterback. When you get in that position, you have to go out and maintain the momentum that the defense gave us. We didn't do it offensively due to the turnovers we had."

"This is a bitter taste," McNair said. "We've got to live [with] this the whole offseason. I think we're going to be even more hungry. We had a good run for the first year I was here. And we're looking for better things."

WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT.

You are just looking to bag McNair and you have from Day one. I don't care if you bought a McNair jersey. I know what you're posted and what I've read. Stop with this crap about you supporting him etc....

Like others have said, so what if he's gonna retire a Titan? Rod Woodson will always be thought of as a Steeler, but his only ring is as a Raven. Sharpe is Bronco but he's got a ring here with us.

Get over it.

PP

[festivus]

I see we're still down to make excuses for the McNair miscues.

No one's making excuses. They were mistakes.

There was nothing there on those plays besides McNair missing open guys. And there wasn't pressure on either occasion. Thats an unforced error to me.

The unforced/forced distinction is not helpful.

Heap and Clayton I can give a mulligan because and least defenders were hitting them and whatnot.

(a) Defenders are often hitting receivers. Receivers are *expected* to put away and to hold the ball.

(b) I would very much like to know what you mean by 'whatnot'.

Re: Ogden, i stick to my point on that. I'd rather have terry in there and start Chester and Brown and maybe even another new player than to bring back Flynn and Mulitalo as starters just to beg Ogden to come back.

I personally would drive to Jonathan Ogden's house (in Nevada) and beg him to come back if I thought it would make the difference. In the history of football he is one of *the premier* offensive linemen, coming off one of his best seasons. That's a fact. You are talking about a guy who is so good that, even in the fickle world of the NFL, Brian Billick calls the Pro Bowl the Jonathan Ogden Invitational, because he *always goes*.

If he really wants to play for us, cool; but if there are requirements or caveats, it just wreaks to me of his heart not being in it

Point to me the time when his heart wasn't in it, ever. This is not a guy who takes plays off. He won't come back if his heart isn't in it, I assure you.

My fear with the vets, especially the ones that really have established legacies, is that they dont really REALLY care what happens one way or the other

On the contrary, it is often the veterans who understand that personal goals must be sacrificed from time to time for a winning team. Just ask Michael McCrary.

Same fear I have with McNair. Nothing I've seen or heard says to me that the 2 INTs 170 were really bothering McNair, even after the fact. The man will retire a Titan. Tough for me think that his career in Baltimore will be his defining moment.

If you think he doesn't, after all his years of personal accomplishments, want a Super Bowl Ring, you're just wrong.

[copenhaggard]

Heap and Clayton I can give a mulligan because and least defenders were hitting them and whatnot.

Since your long-winded post was already dissected by two other people, I'm not going to bother, but this line sticks out to me.

Definitions of mulligan

-A second shot permitted without penalty.
-The chance to replay your last shot.
-A second shot that is allowed to be taken in friendly play when the player has "muffed" (see above) the first one.


There isn't any do-overs, or replays, this is football. Clearly Clayton/Heap fucked up as much on each of their turnovers as McNair did with his two. There is no way to dictate what kind of turnover is what. It's a turnover, and as I've already said, those turnovers negated a big play, and the beginning of a drive, and also gave Indy the ball in our zone already.

Now, explain to me where those turnovers were "not as bad" as McNair's. McNair's turnovers were both horrible mistakes, and drive killers. Clayton/Heaps were the same thing. I don't see where because a defender hits you makes the mistake any easier to swallow, or equates to less of a turnover. Unless players didn't start hitting until the postseason, I fail to see why you should get less blame because the defender made a play on the ball. The defenders clearly beat Heap/Clayton, as well as McNair(x2).

So again, why do Heap/Clayton get a "mulligan" on their turnovers. What makes them so special compared to McNair?