RNC wishing it had picked whitey again...

[Greg]

Whatever Steele's issues are at least he isn't Obama who is looking like a train wreck. He is going through Commerce Secretaries like lactose goes through me.

[Rochardrik]

Galen, please tell me about all fo the Teachers, Firemen, Police Officers that are employed by the federal government.
Also the goverment funds projects(i.e. work) for people that have JOBS in the private sector. that is what you are referring to with Road Crews. The gov't is providing WORK, not JOBS.

This is complete stupidity. Just how many roads do you drive on that are privately owned? Huh? C'mon now... name one. Developers create residential roads, even partially fund commercial streets to develop a , say, shopping center. But They are all, within one to two years turned over to City, county, state, or Federal ownership. Who, then, pays for their upkeep?, how safe is our infrastructure?, how much dire need is there for repairs?
I case you didn't know the Federal government covers about 70 % of these costs for all states. Every state road project has a state project number, and a FAIP(federal aid project) number. Now, the stimulus, if you can read, and comprehend, is not supposed to revitalize the economy. It's goal is to save jobs, and create some new. Now, who do you think does the work? NOT FEDERAL employees, but private contractors... Salvaging these jobs and employers is a very important thing to this country. AND, if you think that eliminating construction companies will strengthen our economy, you are sadly mistaken.
So, if workers are laid off en masse, creating a drain on unemployment funds, and big corporations buy up all the businesses for pennies on the dollar, and then receive tax cuts for doing so, so they can create more jobs? while they just destroyed jobs? Then THEY can do all the road building, paid for by the federal government, and how does that help, or sustain the American dream? Where will the revenue come from? Soon, like farming, it will all be owned by corporate America, and we will be a nation of rich, and poor, there will be no middle class
You people who think that tax cuts (for the wealthiest) are the answer to the problem need to have enough fore sight to see where that eventually will lead. it will lead to 95% of America living a mere existence, while Corporate America controls you and me, and everything else in existence. The cycle is NOT endless, and the end is the destruction of "America for the people, and by the people!"

[jonboy79]

Please tell me how that refuted my point at all? Do you not understqnd the difference between work and jobs, I think AI clearly outlined thar. This bill AT BEST saves some jobs, if only temporarily, or temporarily adds jobs created by the private sector, benefitting from public funding.

[Rochardrik]

Please tell me how that refuted my point at all? Do you not understqnd the difference between work and jobs, I think AI clearly outlined thar. This bill AT BEST saves some jobs, if only temporarily, or temporarily adds jobs created by the private sector, benefitting from public funding.

You're right, I did not do a good job of putting it all together..It would have taken three or 4 pages to do the subject justice. However, a few things. First , as I stated this stimulus is not designed to GROW the economy, necessarily, but to attempt to prevent the further staggering loss of jobs.
As in the Great Depression, the federal spending will not repair the economy, but the money spent then, for a large part was spent on infrastructure that served this country well when we joined in the war against Germany and Japan. The producing factories would have had a hard time delivering the goods produced to defeat the Nazis on the infrastructure that existed prior to FDR's "socialist programs". There were very few miles of hard-surfaced roads in this country prior to his WPA, etc.
Another result of FDR's programs is one that is not very often considered. During the great depression, large corporations, by and large, became stronger than ever. They were buying up businesses and properties by the thousands, which, left unchecked, could have left us a filthy rich, and poor society, with very little in between. The stage is set for that process to be completed, if nothing is done. "By the people and for the people" is not "by 2% of the people and the rest of you be damned," as far as I am concerned.
The recession is not caused by the "middle class" so they should not be punished punitively by having their right to the pursuit of happiness removed from them.
My point about jobs and companies saved by infrastructure work is a win, win situation. Our roads departments have been seeing their budgets cut exponentially for years, while our roads and bridges fall into the worst state if disrepair in decades. The fed is ultimately going to fund these projects, whenever they happen, anyway... And should have been funding them already, in many cases.... In the meantime, these companies who have been greatly hindered by these same "budget cuts" will be able to continue to be viable, and here to perform work when the economy rebounds, in the next part of the cycle.
Imagine if the trillion spent in Iraq had been spent IN this country, for benefits for THIS country, instead of pouring it down a hole with defense contractors who have historically wasted over half of what has been paid them. Imagine if that money had not been spent to kill 4,000 of our own people and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, but to improve OUR situation??

[Greg]

The only way to create wealth is to produce things that can be sold. You can't create wealth with government work. There are necessary functions of government but these necessary jobs are not even half of the ones we current "create" via governemnt. All government jobs are a drag on wealth, but the necessary ones must be paid for to create an environment for wealth creation (police, judicial, etc).

[Rochardrik]

The only way to create wealth is to produce things that can be sold. You can't create wealth with government work. There are necessary functions of government but these necessary jobs are not even half of the ones we current "create" via governemnt. All government jobs are a drag on wealth, but the necessary ones must be paid for to create an environment for wealth creation (police, judicial, etc).

The stimulus is not about creating wealth... no one says it is. And furthermore, infrastructure is as or more important to creating wealth as police, judicial, etc. If you cannot understand that, then I have no more to say! These jobs are not a "drag " on the economy, unless they are a "bridge to nowhere". Instead, they are a complete requirement to produce wealth.. I can't see how you don't understand that!

[Galen Sevinne]

The stimulus is not about creating wealth... no one says it is. And furthermore, infrastructure is as or more important to creating wealth as police, judicial, etc. If you cannot understand that, then I have no more to say! These jobs are not a "drag " on the economy, unless they are a "bridge to nowhere". Instead, they are a complete requirement to produce wealth.. I can't see how you don't understand that!

its really a silly argument.

[HoustonRaven]

The stimulus is not about creating wealth... no one says it is

And that's exactly the problem.

Without any wealth creation, all we are doing is moving money around and / or printing new money, further placing us in debt. Creation of wealth (see production) is what drives the economy forward. Obama and his cronies are not saying it because they know it's not going to produce growth.

And furthermore, infrastructure is as or more important to creating wealth as police, judicial, etc.

That would be a semi-correct statement if that were to actually happen. The states got general grants, not categorical grants -- meaning they can spend the money as they want. Obama and his spending bill may have intended the money for A,B and C but the states can and will spend it on X, Y and Z.

Simply throwing money at the problem did not work for the past 8 years yet now it's supposed to work because Obama says so? Excuse me while I yawn a lot.

Instead, they are a complete requirement to produce wealth.. I can't see how you don't understand that!

Wealth has never been produced by giving folks on the bottom some money. All that has happened is money was taken from one group and given, via the Government, to another. Make no mistake, this bill was the largest confiscation of private wealth in the history of the word. It will be something your grand kids will be paying off in spades.