Ray #52 on Nst 7:30 friday moring

[StingerNLG]

Oh boy, out of the woodwork comes Stinger... Go figure he wants to get all misty-eyed about how I've hurt his feeling with my opinion... :grbac: Typical persecution complex. I'm sorry for calling you a drama queen, Stingy. You're my brother and I got nothing but love for ya.

Dude, I love ya too. But for the love of it please stop this nonsense. Haven't you figured out yet this doesn't work on me? You don't answer the factual part of the issues. You simply turn around and write some smiley-laced veiled attack. Again, it's a shame.

If anyone thinks the casual fan (non-PSL owner, non-hardcore fan) is gonna shell out their hard-earned money, especially with the anticipated price hike on tickets, if our defense suffers because of the loss of a fan-favorite like Ray Lewis (which I think it would), I would challenge that assertion. Or maybe you hadn't noticed the attendance at the stadium towards the end of last season, or 2005, when Ray Lewis was no longer on the field. I was there and there was plenty of seating available, especially in the upper decks.

I hate to tell you, but if this team next year without Ray Lewis is sitting at 11-5 again and in the playoffs, there will be no empty seats.

I'll go a step further. If we are there and it's because of the offense, there won't be so many people missing Ray.

Ray being off the field had nothing to do with the lack of people at the stadium. If you believe that, then you are highly nieve. You are assuming our being 6-10 and our offense stinking had nothing to do with attendance.

Perhaps last year, going 5-11 was the same thing? I mean, Ray Lewis was on the field last year and attendance was down. So what does that do to your arguement?

The end of this year, a winning one and the debut of Flacco-mania, the Ravens set so many consecutive attendance records, I lost track of them all.

Ding ding!! Exactly. You never mentioned Ray Lewis in there did you? Guess what? Joe Flacco is here now, and he may become that new face of the Ravens. In fact, if you were watching the national media towards the end of this year, he very much began to be.

Ray Lewis leaving may or may not simply shift the focus of the team onto Joe Flacco.

And Stinger, you're right. Ray doesn't owe the Ravens and the Ravens don't owe Ray, but that's not what you've been saying. You've been saying that it's Ray who owes the team and the city.

No. What I said was that Ray and the Ravens were even. That has nothing to do with Ray owing the Ravens when it comes to his contract numbers with the team. They've paid him, stood behind him, and NOW they need to take care of multiple players who are also somewhat important, as well as try to enhance the offense with a playmaking WR.

Given all that, Ray owes us. Otherwise, it's all about the Benjamins for Ray Lewis, and nothing about the Baltimore Ravens.

I've said you're wrong and I stand by it.

And I say you are wrong, and stand by that.

The Ravens shouldn't overpay and Ray shouldn't settle for less than what he's worth unless he's tagged. The market will set the price and both parties will move from there. I just happen to think there's too much doom and gloom and that Ozzie is shrewd enough to work something out.

Ozzie's shrewdness is exactly why this deal likely isn't getting done. He has a salary cap to deal with. Ray needs to remember this.

The folks ready to jump off a cliff over this issue are the ones I laugh at. That, purplepoe questioning my love of the Ravens when I've maintained my Ravens swagger despite numerous deployments to third-world shitholes, and Stinger wanting me to go into a locker room and "poll the players"...

Like Ray Lewis, maybe you shouldn't talk so much publically then. If you didn't make crazy comments, we wouldn't quote them and call you into question.

Speaking of which, I am confused. If you are more Ravens fan than Ray Lewis fan, how could you possibly be ok with his public comments and his desire to put money over team?

Once again, this is what you do. I even quoted you basically saying the sky will fall if Lewis leaves. And you turn around and accuse us of doing it. Then you tell us no one works as hard as Ray Lewis, but when you're called on such a bullshit statement, you can't answer it. You can only make a comment like above.

I guess maybe that's the only way you can try to defend yourself.............

[Jeremiah W]

Take heart, brother. Everything will work out fine.

Three things I predict:

1) Terrell Suggs will sign a multi-year contract. (May be dependent on Ray's status)

2) Ray Lewis will retire a Raven, then spend his remaining life in Baltimore.

3) The Ravens receiving corps won't look too much different next year than it did before DWill went down for the season in 2008, meaning unless he or whichever project WR we draft develops at Joe Flacco-like speed, we won't have a Top 10 Offense. Top half of the league? Yes. But Flacco needs a big, fast target to maximize that howitzer on his shoulder.

I agree 100% with all the Ray stuff you have said in this thread and in others, but I am not as sure about the Sizz and Wrs stuff. I could see Suggs doing a Bart Scott kind of deal and taking a little less money on a short term deal so he is a free agent again at 27, but if he wants long term money around the same level as Demarcus Ware, right now, I can not see it.

I love Suggs almost as much as Ray, but I think we can find another guy to do what he does pretty well for a lot less than top dollar.

The entire WR and TE core should progress as much as Joe this off season. They will have a lot better feel for the timing and will be much deeper into the route combinations. The O line and run game provide enough protection to run 5 and 7 step drops, but those deep pass patterns take time to develop chemistry.
I also expect at least one day 1 WR pick and possible mid level free agent type.

My hope is that all 3 linebackers return, but if not, Barnes, gooden, grieson or the next Bart Scott, Suggs, Boulware, Sharper, Polley or Hartwell will emerge and learn along side or Ray Lewis for a few more years. Basically it is Bart's job here to blow up fullbacks. He is a very good linebacker, but is not going to the hall of fame without a ticket. Suggs was almost as good as a rookie at rushing the Qb as he is now, and is not so good in coverage we can't replace him.

I know who is going to be up front and behind the linebackers, and if any of our guys do leave, there will be plenty of guys who would love to be in this defense or just on this team.

That is the big sell, money is not everything, many guys who have made a bunch of money are only still grinding in order to get the ring and the place in Canton. It does not mean they will work for way less than elsewhere, but Detroit or the Bungles would not even try to pull on the heart strings or start up the hometown discount nonsense. The Ravens have that card so they are going to try to play it, and it may not work on all of them, but they do it enough to build an attactive and competitive team to continue the cycle.

[RAVENOUS52]

First of all, guilty as charged on the smileys, bro. I lovem to death...:D ;)

Then I said- Quote:
And Stinger, you're right. Ray doesn't owe the Ravens and the Ravens don't owe Ray, but that's not what you've been saying. You've been saying that it's Ray who owes the team and the city.

Then you said- No. What I said was that Ray and the Ravens were even. That has nothing to do with Ray owing the Ravens when it comes to his contract numbers with the team. They've paid him, stood behind him, and NOW they need to take care of multiple players who are also somewhat important, as well as try to enhance the offense with a playmaking WR.

Given all that, Ray owes us. Otherwise, it's all about the Benjamins for Ray Lewis, and nothing about the Baltimore Ravens.

But if Ray gave you fair value for your money, why would he owe you anything? If he gave the Ravens fair bang for their buck, why would he owe them anything?

And earlier you said.

And as far as Ray not oweing us anything? He owes the organization, and that's a fact. He owes them from 2000. He owes them not cutting him along with Shannon Sharpe and others in the cap purge year. He owes them for not turning their back on him when he turned his back on the team the year he was injured and decided to stay away from the team (but show up at a bowl game).

He's a player WE (season ticket holders ) pay for. Damn right he owes me.

Care to expain? How can Ray and the Ravens be "even" if you think he still owes them? What exactly does he owe you or me as fans? He's won us the Lombardi. His defensive units have carried this franchise for more than a decade and he has added more value to this franchise than any other single player. His debt is paid in full and then some.

You can't have it both ways and this is where we have the disconnect.

You think Ray owes everybody and I don't. Period.

I think the man has every right to pursue what he believes is best for himself and his family and you think he owes us a hometown discount.

All that "The Ravens and Ray are even" stuff doesn't work if you turn right around and say the opposite.

Oops, almost forgot-- Stinger said:

Once again, this is what you do. I even quoted you basically saying the sky will fall if Lewis leaves. And you turn around and accuse us of doing it. Then you tell us no one works as hard as Ray Lewis, but when you're called on such a bullshit statement, you can't answer it. You can only make a comment like above.

I guess maybe that's the only way you can try to defend yourself.............

Check out this link, bro. It's one of many I've read throughout Ray's career.
http://www.mensfitness.com/sports_an...on/athletes/97

"Every now and then you've got exceptions in this world, and Ray is one of them," says Ravens assistant head coach/defensive coordinator Rex Ryan, who's in his tenth season coaching Lewis. Ryan, whose father, Buddy, served as defensive coordinator for the Chicago Bears in the mid '80s, claims the only player he's ever seen match Lewis's work ethic was Walter Payton. "[After retiring], Walter was asked if he would've done anything different. And he would always say, 'I would've worked harder,'" Ryan says. "He worked harder than anyone I've ever seen. I feel the same way about Ray."

I back up my bullshit, buddy! Holla back.

[StingerNLG]

But if Ray gave you fair value for your money, why would he owe you anything? If he gave the Ravens fair bang for their buck, why would he owe them anything?

You clearly don't understand, and since I explained it a couple of posts back, you are simply going to have to read it again.

Care to expain? How can Ray and the Ravens be "even" if you think he still owes them? What exactly does he owe you or me as fans? He's won us the Lombardi. His defensive units have carried this franchise for more than a decade and he has added more value to this franchise than any other single player. His debt is paid in full and then some.

Here is the other problem I have. HE won the Lombardi? So there aren't 52 other men on the roster huh? No Shannon Sharpe to make a bouncing catch. No Jermaine Lewis to run back a kickoff for a touchdown after the Giants did the same thing? It was all Ray Lewis huh?

You think Ray owes everybody and I don't. Period.

And that's fine. Yet you think everyone owes Ray and I don't. Period.

I think the man has every right to pursue what he believes is best for himself and his family and you think he owes us a hometown discount.

I don't have a problem with that either. Where I have the big problem is Ray opening his big mouth on national TV and talking about what a great teammate T.O. would be and how the Jets are an "attractive opportunity". More and more this is about the money and not about the Ravens. So everyone should shut up then about how much Ray Lewis loves the Ravens. Because he clearly has no problem suiting up for Dallas or New York.

This is something you apparently don't understand.

Check out this link, bro. It's one of many I've read throughout Ray's career.
http://www.mensfitness.com/sports_an...on/athletes/97



I back up my bullshit, buddy! Holla back.

You back your bullshit up with someone else's articles? Please, I've backed up my takes with Ray Lewis's own words. Holla at that.


I agree with PP. I think you are putting your love of #52 over your love for the Ravens. If not, you are not doing a real good job of showing it.

[purplepoe]

You know what I think about what you think about me or my loyalty to the Ravens? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. You don't buy me tickets to games and you don't buy any of the Ravens gear that litters my home or office. You're just another fan yapping your mouth, just like me.

I won't even justify the ignorance of the possibility of the Bucs offering Lewis a $45M contract, so let's just forget you mentioned it.

Now, I've already stated numerous times that if they don't want to match the market value that's set when free agency hits they can either franchise him (which he said he didn't mind), or let him go. We've already established that the Ravens won't break the bank and risk hurting the team, so what in the heck are you talking about?

They made him the highest paid defensive player ever in 2002 because he was WORTH IT and then some. Has he not fulfilled his obligations to earn that money?

Of course they stood by him during his darkest days, because his darkest days were their darkest days as well. Did the Packers stand by Favre during his prescription medication abuse? Did the Colts stick with Johnny U when his adultery became damn near common knowledge? OF COURSE.

Some fans seem to be saying they want Ray Lewis to accept less than what his market value is, which to me is crazy because nobody works harder than Lewis and those fans know they wouldn't do the same if their employers came to them in a similar situation.

I may be alot of things, but I ain't a hypocrite.

Ray Lewis should do what's best for himself and his family. I'll be a Ravens fan long after he's gone, so any guesses you want to make to the contrary are wrong or you're playing the drama card.

All this hand-wringing is silly, but typical Baltimore Paranoia. The sky is falling, the team might be ruined, we'll overpay our best players...OH NO!!!

First of all, I never mentioned the Bucs offering a 45 million dollar deal. If you actually read what I wrote, I talked about that number being how far under the cap they are roughly. You might wanna get that straight before coming out and calling someone's statement ignorant.

And if a team that has cap room like that offers Ray a huge deal, that sets the market for him. And if that scenario plays out, what do you expect the Ravens to do? They obviously aren't in the same cap shape as some teams that could break the bank for Ray.

What am I talking about?

You brought up the Ravens somehow "shortchanging" Ray and the somehow that being unethical. I'm countering your point saying the team will offer what it deems fair and whatever happens happens.

Yes, he was worth it when they made him the highest paid player. And now he's 34 and wants another monster deal. If he didn't, he'd be signed sealed and delivered already. It's his right to seek whatever he wants but if that doesn't work for the Ravens, he'll walk.

And your comparison of Favre/Unitas to Ray is laughable. A guy popping pills or sleeping around is the same as being charged with murder? Ummm, no.

I'm not playing any drama card bud. I'm reading your posts about this and coming to a conclusion.

I have never once said Ray should accept whatever offer the Ravens put forth. I know Ray works hard. I know he's still a great player. But I also know he wants big time bucks and the Ravens are not in the position to sign him a huge deal with the other things they need to address (Suggs/Brown/Leonhard/a CB when Cmac goes) all while not being in the best cap shape.

And one more thing, if they franchise Ray, you'll see a very unhappy #52 next season. Bank on that.

PP

[Jeremiah W]

First of all, to sign him a huge deal with the other things they need to address (Suggs/Brown/Leonhard/a CB when Cmac goes) all while not being in the best cap shape.

And one more thing, if they franchise Ray, you'll see a very unhappy #52 next season. Bank on that.

PP

How do you come to this? Banking on anything you predict is maybe what brought down the stock market.

Why would Ray be "very unhappy" to be franchised, and what exactly do you think the negative affects of this unhappy Ray would be?

They are not going to keep all the other free agents, even if they let Ray go. They need to open up some roster spots, they have draft picks, and other guys on the market will be available for less money.

What is the connection between Ray and the cap? Who cares or even really knows what the cap implications are? I know the cap is flexible enough to let Dallas make all the moves they wan't, and if Ray was a free agent to be there, it would be a forgone conclusion that JJ would unload the money truck in his driveway to block the moving vans if he had to.

[purplepoe]

How do you come to this? Banking on anything you predict is maybe what brought down the stock market.

Why would Ray be "very unhappy" to be franchised, and what exactly do you think the negative affects of this unhappy Ray would be?

They are not going to keep all the other free agents, even if they let Ray go. They need to open up some roster spots, they have draft picks, and other guys on the market will be available for less money.

What is the connection between Ray and the cap? Who cares or even really knows what the cap implications are? I know the cap is flexible enough to let Dallas make all the moves they wan't, and if Ray was a free agent to be there, it would be a forgone conclusion that JJ would unload the money truck in his driveway to block the moving vans if he had to.

Let's see, Ray wants a boatload of money (much more than the 8.5 million) he'd get if he were franchised. Franchising him also eliminates his opportunity to test the free agent waters. That is why he'd be upset. It's why almost every player who gets franchised voices his displeasure (Cassell wont) and wants to get a longer team deal done with much more money up front.

Ray being unhappy means the biggest personality on your team isn't in the situation he wants to be in. You know, saying you don't want to be the face of the franchise anymore. Disappearing from the team. Going on TV and telling the team to trade you if they aren't gonna put you in the best position to succeed (i.e. pay you big bucks).

We don't know who's gonna stay and who's gonna go. One thing I do know is that paying Ray what he wants right now would mean less of those guys would stay. Or are you gonna repeat once again how the cap is a farce?

The connection between Ray and the cap is the same as the connection between any other player and the cap. I know you find it hard to believe, but the cap does indeed exist and the numbers aren't classified. The Ravens pay out big money to alot of guys which is why they aren't in the same cap situation of other teams. Who cares? Ozzie does. Who knows? Anyone who cares to look up the numbers. It's real, believe me.

So what are you saying exactly with your Jerry Jones reference? That if Bisciotti wanted to he could back up the money truck to Ray's house and that would be it?

So you can state your opinion as fact yet when I say Ray would be unhappy being tagged, you have an issue with it?

Gotcha.

If Ray wants to go get a huge payday and it's from another team, then that's the way it goes. But this idea that the Ravens are somehow lowballing him or trying to get him to take something he shouldn't take is ridiculous. The fact is the cap is a huge issue with how much they can pay Ray Lewis. I really don't see why that's so hard to see.

PP

[Jeremiah W]

Let's see, Ray wants a boatload of money (much more than the 8.5 million) he'd get if he were franchised. Franchising him also eliminates his opportunity to test the free agent waters. That is why he'd be upset. It's why almost every player who gets franchised voices his displeasure (Cassell wont) and wants to get a longer team deal done with much more money up front.

Ray being unhappy means the biggest personality on your team isn't in the situation he wants to be in. You know, saying you don't want to be the face of the franchise anymore. Disappearing from the team. Going on TV and telling the team to trade you if they aren't gonna put you in the best position to succeed (i.e. pay you big bucks).

We don't know who's gonna stay and who's gonna go. One thing I do know is that paying Ray what he wants right now would mean less of those guys would stay. Or are you gonna repeat once again how the cap is a farce?

The connection between Ray and the cap is the same as the connection between any other player and the cap. I know you find it hard to believe, but the cap does indeed exist and the numbers aren't classified. The Ravens pay out big money to alot of guys which is why they aren't in the same cap situation of other teams. Who cares? Ozzie does. Who knows? Anyone who cares to look up the numbers. It's real, believe me.

So what are you saying exactly with your Jerry Jones reference? That if Bisciotti wanted to he could back up the money truck to Ray's house and that would be it?

So you can state your opinion as fact yet when I say Ray would be unhappy being tagged, you have an issue with it?

Gotcha.

If Ray wants to go get a huge payday and it's from another team, then that's the way it goes. But this idea that the Ravens are somehow lowballing him or trying to get him to take something he shouldn't take is ridiculous. The fact is the cap is a huge issue with how much they can pay Ray Lewis. I really don't see why that's so hard to see.

PP

blah. blah nothing. Show me some numbers. Explain how Suggs getting tagged, holding out, and talking shit on the radio hurt the team, his game or his value?

You talk a good game but make no sense. Like I said in another thread, they can always use the transition tag or one of the lesser tags that allow him to talk to other teams and bring offers that are going to be tough to match if the other team really really wants the guy, but gives the Ravens final say and at least a 2nd round pick if they let him walk.

I knw that the cap is real, but I also know there are a lot of ways around it, and it may be gone in 2010. I also know that JJ kicked out almost an entire salary cap in bonus money last year, before trading for Roy Williams and paying him top dollar.

How many "untouchable players" do the Ravens have they could not or would not trade or cut to keep Ray? It is not like they are up against it, so unless you plan to elaborate on how franchising ray kills the Ravens, I have to assume you are just talking out your behind again.

[xmradiodave]

I doubt the cap is going anywhere. It does make for interesting speculation, but I am sure they will spackle that up right quick.

[RAVENOUS52]

You clearly don't understand, and since I explained it a couple of posts back, you are simply going to have to read it again.

No thanks. You're too emotionally attached to this contract negotiation for me to take this "Ray Lewis, you owe us!" stuff seriously. The man has paid his debt in full and then some to Baltimore and its fans. You sound like a Philly or New York fan with all the unreasonable expectations.

Here is the other problem I have. HE won the Lombardi? So there aren't 52 other men on the roster huh? No Shannon Sharpe to make a bouncing catch. No Jermaine Lewis to run back a kickoff for a touchdown after the Giants did the same thing? It was all Ray Lewis huh?

I don't know whether to laugh that an adult seems so incapable of reading between the lines at times and then alternately pretending to know exactly what I mean when it fits your argument. Yeah, I meant exactly what you just pulled out of your keister: Ray Lewis was the only player on the team in 2000. He pulled a Sammy Baugh and played every position, many times simultaneously. He threw touchdowns and caught touchdowns and intercepted passes for touchdowns. In the end, since he was the only player on the Ravens' bench, Brian Billick reluctantly nominated him for Defensive Player of the Year and SuperBowl MVP. The End.

And that's fine. Yet you think everyone owes Ray and I don't. Period.

This nugget, despite me saying clearly that Nobody owes anybody anything. Ray doesn't owe the Ravens and the Ravens don't owe Ray. Let the market set the value and negotiate from there. Once again, letting your emotions cloud your judgement and reading comprehension.

I don't have a problem with that either. Where I have the big problem is Ray opening his big mouth on national TV and talking about what a great teammate T.O. would be and how the Jets are an "attractive opportunity". More and more this is about the money and not about the Ravens. So everyone should shut up then about how much Ray Lewis loves the Ravens. Because he clearly has no problem suiting up for Dallas or New York.

This is something you apparently don't understand.

Ray Lewis should shut up because it hurts your widdle feewings? Got it. But this is real life and being that Ray Lewis is a free agent, I have no problem with him strengthening his position in contract negotiations by acknowledging that there are other attractive options out there, as long as he's not trashing the Ravens...which he's not.

You back your bullshit up with someone else's articles? Please, I've backed up my takes with Ray Lewis's own words. Holla at that.

Again with the spin cycle? Who's articles am I supposed to use? Despite your disagreement, I gave you a direct quote from Rex Ryan substantiating my assertion that Ray Lewis is the hardest working player on the team (compares him to Walter Payton!) and you pull a Sam Koch. Nice punt, dude.

I agree with PP. I think you are putting your love of #52 over your love for the Ravens. If not, you are not doing a real good job of showing it.

All opinion and all wrong. I'll always be a Ray Lewis fan and a Ravens fan and the fact that he and the Ravens have been around the NFL the same amount of time makes that bond between them even more unbreakable in my mind.

I don't have to kiss anybody's ass about my fandom. Those on this board who really know me and have met me in person know that I'm Purple and Black 4-Life. But life has taught me to stick by my guns when I feel I'm right and that means if the Ravens don't offer Ray Lewis the money he wants or feels he's worth, then he has every right to move on, just as the Ravens would if Ray got hurt. If we really can't do without him, throw the tag as a last-ditch effort. Other than that, let things play out and remain even-keeled.

[StingerNLG]

No thanks. You're too emotionally attached to this contract negotiation for me to take this "Ray Lewis, you owe us!" stuff seriously. The man has paid his debt in full and then some to Baltimore and its fans. You sound like a Philly or New York fan with all the unreasonable expectations.

I translate this as "I don't really have an answer so I'll pretend it never happened."

Good form. Made me not decide to read the respond to of the tripe you posted because you can't argue fact. You can only do that immature shit and smileys.

Come back to me when you grow up a little and can talk without using the word "widdle".

[RAVENOUS52]

I translate this as "I don't really have an answer so I'll pretend it never happened."

Good form. Made me not decide to read the respond to of the tripe you posted because you can't argue fact. You can only do that immature shit and smileys.

Come back to me when you grow up a little and can talk without using the word "widdle".

Nice PUNT.

Shanked it a "widdle" to the right, though.

Might wanna consider stretching your hammys and quads better next time.

<---(Gotta love them smileys!)