What is holding?

**52decleetzu** · 10-11-2009, 04:47 PM

Well we know what holding is NOT, that is for sure.

Holding is NOT clotheslining Trevor Pryce while grabbing his jersey by the shoulder pad so he can't get off the block and preventing him from getting to the QB.

What IS holding?

Well that seems to change as the games go by.

**mjones73** · 10-11-2009, 05:39 PM

The replay on that couldn't have been any better, he's charging at Palmer and the linesman has him in a headlock to keep him from getting there. I believe we ended up with a penalty against us actually on that one play.

**Raveninwoodlawn** · 10-11-2009, 05:41 PM

Trevor Pryce is held on almost every other play.

I mean it's obvious.

**BmoreBrawla** · 10-11-2009, 05:43 PM

There was a third down play vs the Pats where he was trying to run at the RB, and there was a lineman on each of his arms holding him back lol. The fix was in on that game, so I'm not surprised, but there have been awful no-calls in other games too.

**bmoreravengirl** · 10-12-2009, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by mjones73

The replay on that couldn't have been any better, he's charging at Palmer and the linesman has him in a headlock to keep him from getting there. I believe we ended up with a penalty against us actually on that one play.

That was beyond infuriating.

**Ravenswarrior19** · 10-12-2009, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Jeremiah W

?

I mean what is it?

What Heap did was holding, but when Pryce is in a headlock it is not?

A headlock is illegal in pro wrastlin. What is holding, and how can a D play football if they are getting tackled as if they had the football?

Oher got away with some hands to the face, and we got a suspect non fumble call on Clayton, but overall once again the refs were terrible and inconsistant to say the least.

Pass interference is anothr one that I just do not have any idea anymore when it will be called and when, but I have a hard time hating on my defense for not getting a stop when they are getting held like that.

The slow mo close up replays were absolutly disgusting.

I almost have an answer. The abridged version: You can do whatever you want as long as you let go after about 4 steps.

I was seeing it a ton when the Pats were going undefeated in '07. The tv ratings and buzz was so great, I think the league just kinda turned a blind eye to it. Now I see it more or less in every game.

In the not too distant past, the interpretation was as long as your hands were inside the frame of the defended, you could grab his jersey and hold on. The grab became holding if he moved laterally, and you couldn't move your feet to stay in front of him.

Now, you see that all the time. Players engage, defender moves around blocker, pulls even with blocker, blocker holds on, blocker has defender in a chokehold (or technically a hook, which is part of the holding rule).

At this point, the blocker has about 3 or 4 steps to slow the rusher down before he lets go. Hold longer and you may see a flag. Slow him down just for a second or two, and let go -- business as usual.

With Pryce, sometimes you'll even see him get completely past the blocker, at which time the blocker may grab him around the waist. (EX: Holmes TD catch in 1st Bal v. Pit game last year) Again, just for about 4 step, let go, no hold.

Now the rulebook definition of holding. Rule 12 section 1

Article 2 An offensive player cannot obstruct or impede an opponent by grasping him with his
hands or encircling any part of a defender’s body with his arms, except in the following situations:
( a) If he is a runner. A runner may ward off opponents with his hands and arms. He also may
lay his hand on a teammate or push him into an opponent, but he may not grasp or hold
on to a teammate; or
( b) During a loose ball. An offensive player may use his hands/arms legally to block or otherwise
push or pull an opponent out of the way in a personal attempt to recover the ball. See
specific fumble, pass, or kick rules and especially 6-2-5-S-N. 1; or
( c) During a kick. A kicking team player may use his hands/arms to ward off or to push or pull
aside a receiver who is legally or illegally attempting to obstruct his attempt to proceed
downfield; or
( d) During a legal block.
Penalty: For illegal use of hands, arms, or body by the offense: Loss of 10 yards.
Article 3 An offensive player is permitted to block an opponent by contacting him with his head,
shoulders, hands, and/or outer surface of the forearm, or with any other part of his body.
A blocker may use his arms, or open or closed hands, to contact an opponent on or outside the
opponent’s frame (the body of an opponent below the neck that is presented to the blocker). If
a blocker’s arms or hands are outside an opponent’s frame, it is a foul if the blocker materially
restricts him. The blocker immediately must work to bring his hands inside the opponent’s
frame, and as the play develops, the blocker is permitted to work for and maintain his position
against an opponent, provided that he does not illegally clip or illegally push from behind.
Article 4 An offensive blocker cannot:
( a) thrust his hands forward above the frame of an opponent to contact him on the neck, face,
or head (Note: Contact in close-line play that is not prolonged and sustained is not a foul);
( b) charge or fall into the back of an opponent above the waist, or use his hands or arms to
push an opponent from behind in a manner that affects his movement, except in close-line
play (the guideline for officials to use for illegal use of hands in the back above the waist is:
if either hand is on the back, it is a foul. If both hands are on the opponent’s side, it is not a
foul);
( c) use his hands or arms to materially restrict an opponent or alter the defender’s path
or angle of pursuit. Material restrictions include but are not limited to:
( i) grabbing or tackling an opponent;
( ii) hooking, jerking, twisting, or turning him; or
( iii) pulling him to the ground.
Penalty: For holding, illegal use of hands, arms, or body by the offense: Loss of
10 yards.

http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/...20RULEBOOK.pdf

**Jeremiah W** · 10-12-2009, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Ravenswarrior19

I almost have an answer. The abridged version: You can do whatever you want as long as you let go after about 4 steps.

I was seeing it a ton when the Pats were going undefeated in '07. The tv ratings and buzz was so great, I think the league just kinda turned a blind eye to it. Now I see it more or less in every game.

In the not too distant past, the interpretation was as long as your hands were inside the frame of the defended, you could grab his jersey and hold on. The grab became holding if he moved laterally, and you couldn't move your feet to stay in front of him.

Now, you see that all the time. Players engage, defender moves around blocker, pulls even with blocker, blocker holds on, blocker has defender in a chokehold (or technically a hook, which is part of the holding rule).

At this point, the blocker has about 3 or 4 steps to slow the rusher down before he lets go. Hold longer and you may see a flag. Slow him down just for a second or two, and let go -- business as usual.

With Pryce, sometimes you'll even see him get completely past the blocker, at which time the blocker may grab him around the waist. (EX: Holmes TD catch in 1st Bal v. Pit game last year) Again, just for about 4 step, let go, no hold.

Now the rulebook definition of holding. Rule 12 section 1

http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/...20RULEBOOK.pdf

Thanks.

I did not like the old holding when they were only allwed to grab you by the numbers (as a former DL), but now it is like a crime what defenders have to overcome. Not only are they no longer really allowed to hit, they are allowd to be held even more, making that much harder to be in control when you break free of the hold.

It is not at all just a Ravens thing, but as one of the top defensive teams, it hurts the Ravens more than it does other teams. What is the point of paying Suggs and Pryce good money if they are not allowed to play the way they are capable?

I saw a ton of holding in the NE vs Denver game on both teams. They just grab you by the shoulders now and controll you. As a DE my pass rush moves were all based on grabbing the T's shoulders and turning them like a steering wheel, disengaging on either side by pushing and pulling them as needed while bull rushing. Because I had a reach advantage, I was pretty much able to control any blocker I faced as long as I got my hands on them where I wanted. Now that O linemen are allowed to do the same thing, it almost takes a miracle for a DL player to beat his man clean with traditional swim and rip moves. Guys are having to really get out of traditional rush lanes and use spin moves and stuff to break the holds.

I was actually really suprised to see Walt Coleman call a pretty straight up game on Sunday night in the Titans v Indy game. Pretty much every blatant hold I saw was called, but compared to the Pats/ Denver game it was hard to reconcile.