Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 25 to 36 of 46
  1. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Malmö, Sweden
    Posts
    241

    Re: First topic for debate



    True, fairness derives from the respect of of individual rights, but from my point of view, again of European tradition, government is there to ensure that people do respect these rights. From my point of view people, rather than government strive for power. A power hungry government is an expression of power hungry individuals.
    Hrafn




  2. #26

    Re: First topic for debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrafn
    But your argument that brutal dictatorships starts off with disarming the people doesn't hold water.

    The Weimar republic was disarmed by the victors of the Great War, not Hitler.

    Mao took over after a civil war against the nationalists, disarming them of course.

    In Russia, the coup d'etat (I refuse to call it a revolution) was followed by war as well. With following disarmament of opposition.

    Of cuban history, I don't know enough. But the other three should suffice.
    Okay... so you've made my point for me through your own interpretation of history. You use the government to disarm the people for the sole purpose of controlling them. You folks over in Europe enjoy having the government take care of you - so it's less of a biggie that they ask for your firearms in return. Here in the States, most of us have a problem with it. Most don't want The Government to be our nanny. The biggest struggle that our nation faces right now is whether to keep heading down the European nanny state path, or to revert to our roots and take care of our own. It's a very big deal here - we fought a civil war over it in the 19th century, and may very well be presently sowing the seeds of another one.




  3. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Brasília, Brazil
    Posts
    640

    Re: First topic for debate

    I look forward to the day where gun control will be a moot point...

    I believe that for every lady that escapes rape because she has a gun, there's a 6-year-old who finds daddy's .38 and harms someone with it. I believe one should be allowed to own a firearm, so long as it's guaranteed he can only use it in extreme cases or in controlled environments for recreation

    Guns per se aren't the cause of criminality, it's a question of mentality and education, so it's hard to argue against the freedom of owning a gun, provided no harm can come to others




  4. #28

    Re: First topic for debate

    There are people who are irresponsible and own guns. It would seem that there are many 6 year-olds that find daddy's .38 and tragedy follows. Thank you, Big Media. It's Big News when a tragedy like that happens, but ho-hum when someone prevents a crime by showing heat. Big Media is not interested in such stories.




  5. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Mt. Arrogance in the middle of the .11 rolling acres of The Windbag Estates
    Posts
    4,416

    Re: First topic for debate

    The court (that great protector of American liberty) often abbrogates its responsibilities by rubber stamping these new powers, ...
    In many cases the courts themselves increase and create government powers.

    I believe that for every lady that escapes rape because she has a gun, there's a 6-year-old who finds daddy's .38 and harms someone with it.
    What you believe is completely wrong. There are AT LEAST between 600,000 and 1,000,000 annual events in America where a person uses a fire arm to defend themselves. In most cases this is done without a shot being fired. THIS DOES NOT COUNT THE NUMBER OF INSTANCES WHERE THE CRIMINAL WAS DETERRED FROM EVEN ATTEMPTING A CRIME BECAUSE OF THE POSSIBILITY OR EXISTANCE OF A FIRE ARM!

    You are going off what you think and feel, here are numbers from a study from the University of FL. http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/noframedex.html

    Millions of self-defense uses since 1/1/2005.

    http://www.justfacts.com/gun_control.htm

    There are your numbers for accidents and murder. What people think and feel is immaterial when the facts scream otherwise. The problem is the liberal media doesn't tell us these numbers, they just play up the horrors of the relatively few incidents of like Columbine.




  6. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Malmö, Sweden
    Posts
    241

    Re: First topic for debate

    I think I have come away from this thread more knowledgable than I was before. In Europe, there is little or no understandning of the 2nd amendment. It is easy for lobbysists to claim what I tried to claim in the beginning of this thread, that guns breed violence and crime.

    The reports on the effects of carry laws is the first really solid evidence for positives of the right to own a gun. This far outweighs any argument or evidence the gun control lobbyists have.

    This doesn't mean that I'm now an advocate of rights to own a gun over here. The negatives associated with being armed is very deeply rooted in me, and it will probably take a while for me to fully accept the contrary position.
    Hrafn




  7. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Brasília, Brazil
    Posts
    640

    Re: First topic for debate

    I'm not really I can believe that there were 7 million+ crime attempts thwarted by guns in the US last year alone, but I can believe that the number can far exceed the number of accidents. I don't exactly have access to much except for the "liberal media"

    Still, according to the site there's a little less than an accident involving persons under 14 per day, and that figure is way too high if you ask me. There should be a greater effort in the education of citizens regarding guns, IMHO




  8. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Scaggsville, MD
    Posts
    760

    Re: First topic for debate

    Wow... what a contrast to the other Politics forum. Things have remained civil, people have held their ground without being nasty, and a few people even seemed to be enlightened.

    One thing I would mention, Hrafn, is that while the murder rate is typically lower in countries with strict gun control (Britain and Australia come to mind), the rate of "hot" crimes is higher. By "hot" crimes I mean crimes like burglary and carjacking where the owner of the property is present and put in jeopardy. The studies I have seen tend to indicate that criminals are bolder about their targets when there is little to no chance of the victim holding a superior weapon... which, I hope you agree, makes sense. I wish I still had links to the studies I'm referencing, but it's been a few years since I studied this topic. In any case, it's not a huge leap of faith to make, given the reasoning.

    Another reason that violent crime is so high in the United States is the drug trade, which has already been mentioned. Personally, I'm convinced that legalizing most of the "common" illegal drugs is what our society needs to flush out that violent element. Take away the profit of the gangs and the cartels, and they will cease to flourish. But that's just me, and whoever I can convince in this lifetime.




  9. #33

    Re: First topic for debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabrosin
    Wow... what a contrast to the other Politics forum. Things have remained civil, people have held their ground without being nasty, and a few people even seemed to be enlightened.
    Agreed, I like it. The football threads seem to have the same kind of feel as well. Intelligent, level headed discussion, what a concept.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gabrosin, part 2
    Personally, I'm convinced that legalizing most of the "common" illegal drugs is what our society needs to flush out that violent element. Take away the profit of the gangs and the cartels, and they will cease to flourish. But that's just me, and whoever I can convince in this lifetime.
    Can't agree more there either. Even if it is simply Marijuana. Thousands of "criminals" would be released(tax savings), Law enforcement would be seriously less burdened(tax savings), as well of course your point of diminished violence, which leads to a snowball effect of the others. Even before taxation of the product there is HUGE financial imrovements. Add to that The MONSTROUS sin tax they could get away with, as well as the fact that it should be grown where unprofitable products currently grow(Subsidies decrease) abd this snowballs into a highly profitable and positive move for the goverment.

    How Tobacco and Alcohol are legal yet Marijuana is not is beyond me. It is a travesty. I suppose the only remaining legitimate roadblock is the lack of an roadside test for influence level, but then again, that shouldn't be particularly worrisome.




  10. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Malmö, Sweden
    Posts
    241

    Re: First topic for debate

    How Tobacco and Alcohol are legal yet Marijuana is not is beyond me. It is a travesty. I suppose the only remaining legitimate roadblock is the lack of an roadside test for influence level, but then again, that shouldn't be particularly worrisome.
    I'd think the only reason that alcohol and tobacco are legal because of tradition, it is much harder to put in new laws and enforce them than banning not so widespread substances.

    It certainly isn't because they are less harmful than marijuana.
    Hrafn




  11. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Malmö, Sweden
    Posts
    241

    Re: First topic for debate

    Wow... what a contrast to the other Politics forum. Things have remained civil, people have held their ground without being nasty, and a few people even seemed to be enlightened.
    I for one am overjoyed of this fact as discussing politics with people from a society very different from mine is very stimulating. Making me consider the presumptions my view of the world is based upon.
    Hrafn




  12. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Mt. Arrogance in the middle of the .11 rolling acres of The Windbag Estates
    Posts
    4,416

    Re: First topic for debate

    I apologize, I actually got the most heated or appear to have in this thread.

    Still, according to the site there's a little less than an accident involving persons under 14 per day, and that figure is way too high if you ask me.
    You think so? Compare that to auto accidents and how many under 14 are killed in those. Then consider how many women successfully defend themselves from rape. The accidents are terrible but with anything you will have accidents.




Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Russell Street Report Website Design by D3Corp Ocean City Maryland