Heroes and Goats...Week 11 (Lame Duck Edition)

[shaslers]

It was one of Ray's poorest outings in years.

[RAVENOUS52]

It was one of the Ravens' poorest outings in years.

But everything is relative on Heroes and Goats so don't take it too hard if every player you want to be recognized isn't. Just present your argument and try not to dwell on the negative too long...I sure don't. I know we'll play well enough to stay in the thick of things right up until the last game of the season...

[shaslers]

It was one of the Ravens' poorest outings in years.

But everything is relative on Heroes and Goats so don't take it too hard if every player you want to be recognized isn't. Just present your argument and try not to dwell on the negative too long...I sure don't. I know we'll play well enough to stay in the thick of things right up until the last game of the season...

I thought the point of your thread was to negatively call out the "goats" who played badly and positively call out those "heros" toward those who played well. You said you don't dwell on the negative but half the post is discussing the goats.

I'm not really taking anything hard, I just don't agree with a couple of your picks for the two categories, which I figured was also the point of the thread...debating the performances.

If you'd like more detail, I'd say that I'd start by giving Jared Gaither the game ball. After hurting his shoulder midway through the first quarter on the Clayton reverse, he was forced to hold his right arm in a sling position and blocked one handed the entire game. He was entirely effective playing with one arm. Incredible performance. Right up there with Mason, whose injury was not as limiting (admittedly though, in a more demanding position in terms of arm use).

I would have also credited Flacco for the way he was able to move the team, in poor wind conditions to boot. Down 20 points, he kept calm and was productive, helping them pull back to 20-10 and driving the ball again when the interception occurred. Rookie or no rookie, it was one of the better performances. The missed passes were directly attributable to the wind (and were affecting Manning, too).

I can't credit Ray with an interception when Manning basically threw the ball right at him. Ray just happened to be standing there and there was not a player within 15 yards from him. Love the pick, but it wasn't exactly a case of great pass coverage or great break on the ball. Ray was terrible in multiple tackling opportunities, including Jacobs big gainers in the first quarter and Bradshaw's 77 yard run in the fourth. I gave the linebackers as a whole and "F" in my report card this week. Mike Preston correctly described the inadequacy...

Linebackers Ray Lewis and Bart Scott were in position to make tackles, but their tackling wasn't fundamentally sound, and the Ravens' pursuit angles were atrocious. Giants running back Brandon Jacobs can make a lot of defenses look bad, but the Ravens made themselves look even worse.

[Jeremiah W]

I think Ray played pretty well even though he did over pursue a couple times and did not find the hole before the RB like he normally does, but it was the Giant O line and FB that got a push on the whole front 7 that made it tough for Ray to find and make the plays.

The Ravens got a lot of penalty problems in this game, not only the ones they clearly blew themselves like off sides and false starts, but the non calls they did not get on holding is really hurting the D.

I was looking close at the interior line on the coaching film higlights on the Ravens site, and it looks like they are grabbing and tackling Pryce and Nagta. Bannan got buried a lot more often than I had seen out of him as well and it looked like they pulled him for big #68 more than normal. The Giant O line is very good, better tahn I thought and I knew they were good, but the Ravens are going to have to find a way to get those holding calls or get away with a lot more holding themselves.

Overall I did not think this game was as ugly as the score. The Ravens got beat pretty good, but it mostly came down to 5 or 6 big plays, but they all went the other way. It was an all around team loss. No one player blew it, and no one coach did, they all stunk Sunday but because the Giants jumped on them and got all the luck and all the calls.

[ravenjoe]

I can't credit Ray with an interception when Manning basically threw the ball right at him. Ray just happened to be standing there and there was not a player within 15 yards from him. Love the pick, but it wasn't exactly a case of great pass coverage or great break on the ball....

I tend to disagree with you on this point. Having played the position myself, putting oneself in the right position is the result of diligent film study, not luck. Ray diligently studies film, and he knows the opponent's tendencies during certain game situations. If he feels a crossing pattern is a tendency for a particular down and yardage situation, then he positions himself accordingly. I don't believe in luck - you earn your breaks through hard work, both on and off the field.

[RAVENOUS52]

I thought the point of your thread was to negatively call out the "goats" who played badly and positively call out those "heros" toward those who played well. You said you don't dwell on the negative but half the post is discussing the goats.

I'm not really taking anything hard, I just don't agree with a couple of your picks for the two categories, which I figured was also the point of the thread...debating the performances.

If you'd like more detail, I'd say that I'd start by giving Jared Gaither the game ball. After hurting his shoulder midway through the first quarter on the Clayton reverse, he was forced to hold his right arm in a sling position and blocked one handed the entire game. He was entirely effective playing with one arm. Incredible performance. Right up there with Mason, whose injury was not as limiting (admittedly though, in a more demanding position in terms of arm use).

I would have also credited Flacco for the way he was able to move the team, in poor wind conditions to boot. Down 20 points, he kept calm and was productive, helping them pull back to 20-10 and driving the ball again when the interception occurred. Rookie or no rookie, it was one of the better performances. The missed passes were directly attributable to the wind (and were affecting Manning, too).

I can't credit Ray with an interception when Manning basically threw the ball right at him. Ray just happened to be standing there and there was not a player within 15 yards from him. Love the pick, but it wasn't exactly a case of great pass coverage or great break on the ball. Ray was terrible in multiple tackling opportunities, including Jacobs big gainers in the first quarter and Bradshaw's 77 yard run in the fourth. I gave the linebackers as a whole and "F" in my report card this week. Mike Preston correctly described the inadequacy...

The Ravens run defense was mentioned as Goats, so what's your beef, Chief?

Ray did miss a couple of tackles-- I've said as much. But relative to the way the entire team blew chunks, he made an impact with the timely INT and the double-digit stops.

And if you can't credit Ray with and interception because he caught a pass that was thrown in his direction by the opposing QB, then when is he allowed to be credited with an INT? :grbac:

Isn't that how the majority of INTs occur? Some dude makes an errant pass and the defender catches it? But Flacco gets a pass because it was windy outside? Aren't you being a bit selective in your "who gets credit for what" criteria?:D

[RAVENOUS52]

I tend to disagree with you on this point. Having played the position myself, putting oneself in the right position is the result of diligent film study, not luck. Ray diligently studies film, and he knows the opponent's tendencies during certain game situations. If he feels a crossing pattern is a tendency for a particular down and yardage situation, then he positions himself accordingly. I don't believe in luck - you earn your breaks through hard work, both on and off the field.

Ahhh, the voice of experience and reason! Eli Manning didn't just decide to play a game of catch with Ray Lewis. Ray Lewis understood the formation prior to the snap and based on his knowledge from film study, made the proper depth and positioning adjustment that left him in the right place to snag the ball? That scenario sounds a bit more reasonable to me...

[Dave Lap]

Ahhh, the voice of experience and reason! Eli Manning didn't just decide to play a game of catch with Ray Lewis. Ray Lewis understood the formation prior to the snap and based on his knowledge from film study, made the proper depth and positioning adjustment that left him in the right place to snag the ball? That scenario sounds a bit more reasonable to me...

Dumb luck doesn't hurt either....:)

[RAVENOUS52]

Dumb luck doesn't hurt either....:)

Nah, he's done it his entire career, check the numbers when he's healthy.:respect

[shaslers]

The Ravens run defense was mentioned as Goats, so what's your beef, Chief?
...
And if you can't credit Ray with and interception because he caught a pass that was thrown in his direction by the opposing QB, then when is he allowed to be credited with an INT? :grbac:

Isn't that how the majority of INTs occur? Some dude makes an errant pass and the defender catches it?

When a QB makes a throw to a defensive player standing in the middle of the field all by himself I think that's different than, say, a pass thrown to a receiver and the defender jumps the route at the last second as we saw the Aaron Ross do to Flacco and as Samari Rolle did the previous week. That's hero stuff. But hey, Ray was in position and he did catch the ball. It just wasn't the kind of play that made me say, wow, I forgive his terrible tackling today.

I agree that he gets credit for playing his assignment and being in position. But no more credit than a receiver who runs a nice route and then finds himself wide open when the defender falls down. Manning's throw was akin to a cornerback falling down, and I think Manning would admit it was just a dumb throw. There is a difference in my mind between a great diving catch in tight coverage, and a catch when the receiver falls. Just as there is a difference in the kind of INT Rolle had last week and Ray had this week. That was my point, but if you disagree, that's fine by me. No biggie.

As for the entire run defense entirely blowing chunks, I didn't see it that way. I thought the front three, and Suggs, did a decent job in their assignments, but Ray and Bart struggled to shed blocks and take good angles. I graded the linebackers much lower than the D line. Just the way I saw it.

Look, clearly you are a fan of Ray's based on your user name. I'm no Ray Hater by any means. Just trying to write about what I think I saw . I guess we're just starting at different places. No biggie. Didn't mean to argue about it.

[Mwjergs]

For a team that played so badly I couldn't find many bright spots.
But,

Gaither and Mason are true gamers.

McClain has been a nice surprise all year. It's more for his season's work and not catching a WIDE open pass that Flacco made possible with his feet though.

Ray Lewis. The stats lie to you here but it also reveals the man's greatness. Yes he had 10 tackles and an INT. However on the big plays from scrimmage he either overpursued or got run over. Thing is he's been making those plays all year, as well as his whole career and it just shows that when he has a few misses how costly they can be. I would have put him on H.M.

Fabian had a rough game but his run down of Bradshaw showed fire. At that point in the game how many guys just give up?

Flacco played well. His first INT was his, the second was Mason's. The TD was all his too. This game showed that we REALLY need a #1 receiver with SPEED!!!!!!! Mark Clayton, Todd Heap, Figurs????? MIA? H.M. is valid though.

Line play was bad on both sides. Not much else to say there.

Matt Stover is done.
Since 2005 he is 28 of 51 from attempts of 40 yards or longer; that's 54%. He's a nice guy. He's had a fantastic career. Nothing against him. He's just gotten too old.

[RAVENOUS52]

When a QB makes a throw to a defensive player standing in the middle of the field all by himself I think that's different than, say, a pass thrown to a receiver and the defender jumps the route at the last second as we saw the Aaron Ross do to Flacco and as Samari Rolle did the previous week. That's hero stuff. But hey, Ray was in position and he did catch the ball. It just wasn't the kind of play that made me say, wow, I forgive his terrible tackling today.

I agree that he gets credit for playing his assignment and being in position. But no more credit than a receiver who runs a nice route and then finds himself wide open when the defender falls down. Manning's throw was akin to a cornerback falling down, and I think Manning would admit it was just a dumb throw. There is a difference in my mind between a great diving catch in tight coverage, and a catch when the receiver falls. Just as there is a difference in the kind of INT Rolle had last week and Ray had this week. That was my point, but if you disagree, that's fine by me. No biggie.

As for the entire run defense entirely blowing chunks, I didn't see it that way. I thought the front three, and Suggs, did a decent job in their assignments, but Ray and Bart struggled to shed blocks and take good angles. I graded the linebackers much lower than the D line. Just the way I saw it.

Look, clearly you are a fan of Ray's based on your user name. I'm no Ray Hater by any means. Just trying to write about what I think I saw . I guess we're just starting at different places. No biggie. Didn't mean to argue about it.

No argument here, man... I respect your opinion. Hell, value it even. I actually think that Manning didn't see Ray out there as he released it because one of his linemen blocked his line of sight. By the time it left his hand, his receiver wasn't where he thought they would be and Ray Ray catches the pass.

It's like taking credit away from Joe Flacco on his touchdown pass to Demetrius Williams the other week because absolutely nobody was defending D. Will. It shouldn't matter. A big play is a big play. But I get where you're coming from, so it's all good.