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  1. #16

    Re: The debate has just begun: arm strength



    It's hard for me to beleive that McNair, who had an absolute gun coming out of college, has turned into Steve Walsh/Ken Dorsey over the course of 11 seasons.

    It's logical that your arm will get weaker with age...but not to that level. And I don't think he has had any arm injuries that would affect his arm strength.

    I'm not jumping off a bridge yet and I have seen a lot to like from McNair, but I think even the biggest "McNair is our savior" guys had to be watching this and pleading for a shot downfield.

    I mean, just watching the WR's routes, we have Mason and Clayton running these 5 yard routes...do we even ask them to run deep routes?




  2. #17

    Re: The debate has just begun: arm strength

    McNair threw a 20 Yard pass last night, with very quality arm-strength. It was incomplete, but it was a good, hard throw that he zipped in there. Even though it was incomplete, I was happy to see the throw. Also, in practice, as someone else referred to, he's thrown multiple 40+ yard passes that were right on the money.

    He cant throw 60 yard bombs, but his arm-strength is plenty good to get it downfield. Why hasn't he been doing it very often at all in games? You got me. Could be coaching, the plays, us just being vanilla as to not give anything away, etc.




  3. #18
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    Re: The debate has just begun: arm strength

    This is the exact same problem that we had at YBR. I start a debate thread about McNair's arm strength, and the personal attacks begin. It's a discussion board ... we have different opinions.
    What personal attack?
    Please show me where I insulted you personally.
    I'd bet the house that if I had "attacked" someone who disagreed with you, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

    You've been complaining about McNair for one reason or another before he even arrived. Your "cap busting salary" claim never worked out, so then you started writing post after post bashing him for his arm strength (and it isn't as if we haven't had this discussion in multiple other threads before).

    You were gloating about McNair's "weak arm." That was pretty clear.
    You're concerned about it...fine. You don't think he's very good...fine. You called people out and laughed about it. Excuse me for saying so, but that's borderline trollish.

    It's a shame to start this new board to get away from stuff like the Boller Wars, only to have a mod write the same kinds of posts about McNair that people like WSO and Oldfan wrote about Boller. Then you have the nerve to be offended when someone calls you on it?

    I expect better...or do the rules apply to everyone except you and the people you agree with?
    Last edited by RavenMad2099; 08-26-2006 at 11:12 AM.
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  4. #19

    Re: The debate has just begun: arm strength

    Sorry folks, but the sky is NOT falling. Mac had a rough night to be sure, but there are a few points that I will throw out in his defense.

    1. The Vikings run the same defense as Tampa Bay. It has been clearly stated that last night's offense would be and should be "vanilla". THat means the plays were scripted and every effort would be made not to give TB a clue as to what we are capable of.

    2. The OL had a very difficult time dealing with the multiple blitz packages that Min was using. Mac did a very nice job (IMO) to avoid more than the two sacks. This is not good news for the season and shows that OL is still a MAJOR issue against faster, blitz heavy defenses. Oh yeah, is Tony Pashos a complete waste of flesh or what? That guy was getting absolutely OWND on the right side of the line. We still have MAJOR work to be done in this area.

    3. Our receiving corp looked like crap last night. Maybe Min's secondary was playing great, maybe our receivers were not finding a way to get open. Either way, there was a Min DB within 5 yrds of every receiver all through the first half and Mac had very little to throw to.

    4. The interception was Clayton's fault, not Mac's. Clayton was supposed to go 5 yrds and sit down. Instead he tried to drift to the outside just as the ball was being released which put him out of position to make a play on the ball.

    5. Penalties. Mental mistakes are going to kill us again this year if we can't find a way to stop the pre-snap penalties. Twice we were in the Red Zone and got false start penalties that put us back into field goal range.

    You guys can bash Mac all you want, but we got beaten by a very good Viking defense last night and that is simply not the fault of ONE guy. I know some of you wnat to see deep threat football, but you might as well get used to the 5-20 yrd pass because it will be our bread and butter all season long. We are not, nor should we be IMO, a deep threat team. We simply do not have the speed on the outside, or arm strength on the inside to run that type of O. Mason and Clayton are both YAC receivers and quick, short passes play to their strengths.

    In a way, I am glad that we got spanked last night. I got the feeling that the O felt like Mac was some God who would be able to cary them all on his shoulders to the SB. He is not, and he never was. The entire O will need to step up if we are going to be successful this year, not just Mac. Finally, I hope this embarassing loss provides some much needed motivation for our team going into the start of the season.




  5. #20

    Re: The debate has just begun: arm strength

    He cant throw 60 yard bombs, but his arm-strength is plenty good to get it downfield. Why hasn't he been doing it very often at all in games? You got me. Could be coaching, the plays, us just being vanilla as to not give anything away, etc.
    One good hard pass though in a couple of games still can be concerning. What I guess alarms me, and I hope you're right that it's just pre-season and Fassell isn't giving anything away, is that the 1st team offense made no attempt to keep the defense honest by at least taking a shot downfield.

    You guys can bash Mac all you want, but we got beaten by a very good Viking defense last night and that is simply not the fault of ONE guy. I know some of you wnat to see deep threat football, but you might as well get used to the 5-20 yrd pass because it will be our bread and butter all season long. We are not, nor should we be IMO, a deep threat team. We simply do not have the speed on the outside, or arm strength on the inside to run that type of O. Mason and Clayton are both YAC receivers and quick, short passes play to their strengths.
    Ok, but the Vikings effectively shut that down last night. And Tampa runs the same type of defense that the Vikings do, so that means Fassell better start figuring something out, because if we try this run-on-first-down stuff again and get stuffed like last night, Tampa bay will be a long day.

    I don't think anyone is putting the loss wholly on McNair. The offensive line failed, once again. But the talk all though the offseason was that McNair would compensate for the offensive line problems and score points. It's not happening yet. I'm hoping like most people that the offense will just snap their fingers and play for real in 2 weeks.
    Last edited by StingerNLG; 08-26-2006 at 11:37 AM.




  6. #21

    Re: The debate has just begun: arm strength

    Ok, but the Vikings effectively shut that down last night. And Tampa runs the same type of defense that the Vikings do, so that means Fassell better start figuring something out, because if we try this run-on-first-down stuff again and get stuffed like last night, Tampa bay will be a long day.

    Read Point #1 in my earlier post. Fassel was running a crap O on purpose. Why would we show our hand two weeks before it matters?

    I don't think anyone is putting the loss wholly on McNair. The offensive line failed, once again. But the talk all though the offseason was that McNair would compensate for the offensive line problems and score points. It's not happening yet. I'm hoping like most people that the offense will just snap their fingers and play for real in 2 weeks.
    Well some are since they have pointed their fingers at Mac without mentioning any of the other factors in last night's loss. Anyone who said or thought that Mac would (as a singularity) be able to elevate the play of the O is only looking at half the picture. Mac can lead the horses to water, the rest of the O still has to bend down and take a drink.




  7. #22

    Re: The debate has just begun: arm strength

    Read Point #1 in my earlier post. Fassel was running a crap O on purpose. Why would we show our hand two weeks before it matters?
    Because you still have to get into a rhythm. Minnesota had no qualms about going downfield on us and scoring points. If we're tied 10-10 at halftime running a vanilla offense and we lose, then I'm with you. But scoring 3 points in 2 games? I can't buy into that just yet.

    I just don't think that we would be giving away our playbook if McNair threw a sideline streak pass once in the last 2 games, that's all.


    Well some are since they have pointed their fingers at Mac without mentioning any of the other factors in last night's loss. Anyone who said or thought that Mac would (as a singularity) be able to elevate the play of the O is only looking at half the picture. Mac can lead the horses to water, the rest of the O still has to bend down and take a drink.
    Absolutely. There's a whole lot of hypocrisy going around the last 24 hours. Greg nailed it in the thread he just created. Anyone who doesn't understand that the offensive line is the primary issue just wanted McNair because his name wasn't Boller. But last night was proof that without an OL, it doesn't matter who the QB is. Part of my original post was pointing out again what Greg said; all the things that weren't excuses to Boller are now instant excuses for McNair's inability to score points. And it is an expected thing, no doubt.

    But for some of us what the problem is, and was, still happen to be the same thing even with a new Quarterback.




  8. #23

    Re: The debate has just begun: arm strength

    Because you still have to get into a rhythm. Minnesota had no qualms about going downfield on us and scoring points.
    Min isn't playing a clone of our D in two weeks. They could afford to let it hang out more than we can.

    I just don't think that we would be giving away our playbook if McNair threw a sideline streak pass once in the last 2 games, that's all.
    I agree, but as I said earlier...our first half was scripted. Also notice that we had no success running the ball either. NONE. The Vikings D was just on fire last night and we were not (rightly IMO) willing to pull out the big guns to try and stop them.




  9. #24
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    Re: The debate has just begun: arm strength

    I doubt Fassel was running a "crap" offense on purpose. I don't think he instructed the OL to fail to block well. And if Clayton had "sat down" on that route Smoot would have still been all over him. Throwing that pass was a terrible decision. The DB was all over the Clayton, even more so if he sits down on the route. That ball should not have been thrown.

    Again, when bad things happen with McNair the fingers point all over the place, when Boller does it is all his fault. On top of that, many guys are discounting Boller's play the last few games any way they can, including saying that he made a bunch of mistakes despite no picks and very nice statistics.




  10. #25

    Re: The debate has just begun: arm strength

    If anything, that gave Tampa a blueprint...just overload the middle and continue with 8 in the box.

    Our OL was embarassed...and lost almost every single one-on-one battle. Now Minny does have a DL with a lot of talent...3 1st round picks with perhaps their best run stopper undrafted...but we will be seeing the same when we play Tampa. And Tampa has a vastly superior defense IMHO.

    I just lost a ton of optimism watching them last night as I saw what I have been seeing for the past 4 or 5 years...and add to the fact that they just seem to fall apart on the road adds up to some serious doubt.

    What are they going to do In Tampa in the heat against that outstanding defensive line? Or In KC which has a historically terrific home field advantage? Or Denver? Or New Orleans with thier pass rushing ends? Or even Tennessee with what happened last year?

    They can turn it around, but they need to show something and stop it with teh "blind leap of faith" that everything is going to be ok.




  11. #26

    Re: The debate has just begun: arm strength

    Again, when bad things happen with McNair the fingers point all over the place, when Boller does it is all his fault. On top of that, many guys are discounting Boller's play the last few games any way they can, including saying that he made a bunch of mistakes despite no picks and very nice statistics.
    I have to agree with Greg on this. It's what ticked me off so badly during the Boller wars. Every offensive bumble is Boller's fault, but none of them are McNair's.

    I think the TRUTH lies somewhere in between. All QBs make mistakes; shit happens. The real problem is that the offense sucks as a whole. Until the underlying problems are fixed, it doesn't matter who's under center. In fact, it's amazing how Boller-like McNair has looked the last two weeks. I don't think McNair's skills have deteriorated that much. I think our offense produces "Bollers".




  12. #27

    Re: The debate has just begun: arm strength

    I've mentioned in the past the about McNair underthrowing deep passes even when he was a Titan... it's not like he just lost his arm this year. It isn't a huge deal though, because when their offense changed under Heimerdinger (sp?) to throwing more downfield he was still successful in that system. From what I remember of McNair he lived in the short and intermediate area even very early in his career and was successful then as well.

    I think that Fassel and the offensive coaches have put the cuffs on the offense making sure the QB gets rid of the ball quickly and on time instead of going downfield all the time. I actually thought this was a smart thing to do in order to protect our suspect offensive line. I personally can't see McNair coming out of the opening game healthy if all he does is 7 step drops all day against Tampa and Simeon Rice.

    I'll agree that McNair doesn't have all that much arm strength but I really don't think he ever did. Also we've had QB's that could get the ball downfield (Banks, Blake, Boller, etc.) and that didn't work out all that well for us either. Now we have a QB that can put the ball in the right spot for yac on short passes and isn't afraid to throw the ball to the intermediate routes. I think we'll finally see the ball go more downfield after the Ravens have established the running game and use the play-action pass to their advantage. I just don't think the Ravens are going to get all tricky and try to play this card yet. All you had to was look at Brad Johnson last night for an example of a QB with a suspect arm that has been successful even into his late 30s.

    We have to look at the Ravens as a team that is going to methodically drive the ball down the field in order to score. They'll have to stop the penalties and mental mistakes in order to sustain drives like that. We got spanked last night, but still did pretty well in time of possesion which if it carries forward to the regular season should lend itself well to keeping our defense fresher.




  13. #28
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    Re: The debate has just begun: arm strength

    The fact that the entire team was off last night,even though the D pulled their crap together by the second quarter, leads me to believe that the flight may have shook them up pretty bad. Not making excuses, but I don't think McNair ever played good in preseason and he was trying to make things happen. Last night was also JO's first game back and maybe that created some kind of glitch in chemistry. That game was just painful to watch and I hope it served as a wakeup call.




  14. #29
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    Re: The debate has just begun: arm strength

    I'm going to ask again, how do you know that McNair can't throw deep when he hasn't had the opp. If the OL can't block for more than 1.5 seconds, and Udeze was frequently in the backfield before that last night, you simply can't throw deep. It can't be done, period. The plays can't develop.

    I also doubt you'll see the same bland offense come Week 1. With Tampa running the same defense and having scouts there, I'm sure Billick and Fassel didn't want to show off much. No, they obviously didn't tell the OL to suck, but they didn't do much with the playcalling to help them out. It was straight up drop back passes. If we get blitzed or pressured as much in Week 1, Fassel will (hopefully) call roll outs, screen passes, etc, to slow the D's rush down a bit.
    ''You'd love to go on the first day but I'm glad for the situation I'm in,'' he said. ''Baltimore knows how to play defense.''




  15. #30

    Re: The debate has just begun: arm strength

    I'm going to ask again, how do you know that McNair can't throw deep when he hasn't had the opp.
    Actually, we've seen him try it twice...once in the scrimmage against the ***skins and once in the 1st preseason game. Both attempts were butt ugly.




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