The debate has just begun: arm strength

**RavenMad2099** · 08-26-2006, 09:39 AM

Have we ever started a weaker armed QB since Harbs? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Gee, T...you sound happy about it...positively giddy, in fact.

At the time, I was furious that Ozzie sat around waiting for McNair while opportunities to obtain other quality QBs passed us by. That being said, the roster is what it is. I would rather have an allegedly weak-armed McNair than the catastrophe waiting on the bench.

This is also preseason. That doesn't mean we should ignore everything we see on the field (the coaches sure don't), but I'm not going to panic or make blanket judgements yet, either. The tape on our starting QB from last year shows that he's the best we've had in many a long year. The overall impression I have from watching in a Ravens uniform so far shows that he is also a good decision maker; he doesn't make many boneheaded mistakes <ahem>.

I think I'll just wait until we start gameplanning for opponents in games that actually count for something before drawing final conclusions. If McNair can't top a 71.8 rating, convert 3rd downs, and move our offense down the field more consistently, I'll gladly join the new Hater club you're attempting to establish.

**Mista T** · 08-26-2006, 09:57 AM

Gee, T...you sound happy about it...positively giddy, in fact.

.......I'll gladly join the new Hater club you're attempting to establish.

This is the exact same problem that we had at YBR. I start a debate thread about McNair's arm strength, and the personal attacks begin. It's a discussion board ... we have different opinions.

I'm concerned about McNair's arm strength, just like I was concerned about Boller's being handed the job w/o competition, Blake's attitude, the Water Buffalo's immobility, Testaverde's ill-timed turnovers. How is that "giddiness", or "hate"? The only "giddiness" I would have for the Ravens would be a playoff run, and I reserve the "hate" for yellow piss rags waved in my face at the stadium.

If you have a rebuttal about his apparent arm strength problems, spit it out. And who said anything about "final conclusions"? Yikes - it's just the 3rd game of the preseason. If he's resting the arm for the stretch run in December, I'm OK by that. We cannot make "final conclusions" until the season is over.

How about we just all stick to the script here on the new board and debate the opinions expressed, not going after the person who expressed them.

**crazyraven** · 08-26-2006, 10:13 AM

I'm disappointed as most of you are but lets be honest The first half was a defensive battle. For both sides. its a mistake to let a few preseason games to dictate the caliber of mcnair considering his history. That int had nothing to do with the O-line or arm strenght. I'll judge him and the rest of the team when it counts in the regular season.

**Raveninwoodlawn** · 08-26-2006, 10:42 AM

It's hard for me to beleive that McNair, who had an absolute gun coming out of college, has turned into Steve Walsh/Ken Dorsey over the course of 11 seasons.

It's logical that your arm will get weaker with age...but not to that level. And I don't think he has had any arm injuries that would affect his arm strength.

I'm not jumping off a bridge yet and I have seen a lot to like from McNair, but I think even the biggest "McNair is our savior" guys had to be watching this and pleading for a shot downfield.

I mean, just watching the WR's routes, we have Mason and Clayton running these 5 yard routes...do we even ask them to run deep routes?

**lance1086** · 08-26-2006, 10:50 AM

McNair threw a 20 Yard pass last night, with very quality arm-strength. It was incomplete, but it was a good, hard throw that he zipped in there. Even though it was incomplete, I was happy to see the throw. Also, in practice, as someone else referred to, he's thrown multiple 40+ yard passes that were right on the money.

He cant throw 60 yard bombs, but his arm-strength is plenty good to get it downfield. Why hasn't he been doing it very often at all in games? You got me. Could be coaching, the plays, us just being vanilla as to not give anything away, etc.

**RavenMad2099** · 08-26-2006, 10:56 AM

This is the exact same problem that we had at YBR. I start a debate thread about McNair's arm strength, and the personal attacks begin. It's a discussion board ... we have different opinions.

What personal attack?
Please show me where I insulted you personally.
I'd bet the house that if I had "attacked" someone who disagreed with you, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You've been complaining about McNair for one reason or another before he even arrived. Your "cap busting salary" claim never worked out, so then you started writing post after post bashing him for his arm strength (and it isn't as if we haven't had this discussion in multiple other threads before).

You were gloating about McNair's "weak arm." That was pretty clear.
You're concerned about it...fine. You don't think he's very good...fine. You called people out and laughed about it. Excuse me for saying so, but that's borderline trollish.

It's a shame to start this new board to get away from stuff like the Boller Wars, only to have a mod write the same kinds of posts about McNair that people like WSO and Oldfan wrote about Boller. Then you have the nerve to be offended when someone calls you on it?

I expect better...or do the rules apply to everyone except you and the people you agree with?

**Mobtown** · 08-26-2006, 11:27 AM

Sorry folks, but the sky is NOT falling. Mac had a rough night to be sure, but there are a few points that I will throw out in his defense.

1. The Vikings run the same defense as Tampa Bay. It has been clearly stated that last night's offense would be and should be "vanilla". THat means the plays were scripted and every effort would be made not to give TB a clue as to what we are capable of.

2. The OL had a very difficult time dealing with the multiple blitz packages that Min was using. Mac did a very nice job (IMO) to avoid more than the two sacks. This is not good news for the season and shows that OL is still a MAJOR issue against faster, blitz heavy defenses. Oh yeah, is Tony Pashos a complete waste of flesh or what? That guy was getting absolutely OWND on the right side of the line. We still have MAJOR work to be done in this area.

3. Our receiving corp looked like crap last night. Maybe Min's secondary was playing great, maybe our receivers were not finding a way to get open. Either way, there was a Min DB within 5 yrds of every receiver all through the first half and Mac had very little to throw to.

4. The interception was Clayton's fault, not Mac's. Clayton was supposed to go 5 yrds and sit down. Instead he tried to drift to the outside just as the ball was being released which put him out of position to make a play on the ball.

5. Penalties. Mental mistakes are going to kill us again this year if we can't find a way to stop the pre-snap penalties. Twice we were in the Red Zone and got false start penalties that put us back into field goal range.

You guys can bash Mac all you want, but we got beaten by a very good Viking defense last night and that is simply not the fault of ONE guy. I know some of you wnat to see deep threat football, but you might as well get used to the 5-20 yrd pass because it will be our bread and butter all season long. We are not, nor should we be IMO, a deep threat team. We simply do not have the speed on the outside, or arm strength on the inside to run that type of O. Mason and Clayton are both YAC receivers and quick, short passes play to their strengths.

In a way, I am glad that we got spanked last night. I got the feeling that the O felt like Mac was some God who would be able to cary them all on his shoulders to the SB. He is not, and he never was. The entire O will need to step up if we are going to be successful this year, not just Mac. Finally, I hope this embarassing loss provides some much needed motivation for our team going into the start of the season.

**StingerNLG** · 08-26-2006, 11:28 AM

He cant throw 60 yard bombs, but his arm-strength is plenty good to get it downfield. Why hasn't he been doing it very often at all in games? You got me. Could be coaching, the plays, us just being vanilla as to not give anything away, etc.

One good hard pass though in a couple of games still can be concerning. What I guess alarms me, and I hope you're right that it's just pre-season and Fassell isn't giving anything away, is that the 1st team offense made no attempt to keep the defense honest by at least taking a shot downfield.

You guys can bash Mac all you want, but we got beaten by a very good Viking defense last night and that is simply not the fault of ONE guy. I know some of you wnat to see deep threat football, but you might as well get used to the 5-20 yrd pass because it will be our bread and butter all season long. We are not, nor should we be IMO, a deep threat team. We simply do not have the speed on the outside, or arm strength on the inside to run that type of O. Mason and Clayton are both YAC receivers and quick, short passes play to their strengths.

Ok, but the Vikings effectively shut that down last night. And Tampa runs the same type of defense that the Vikings do, so that means Fassell better start figuring something out, because if we try this run-on-first-down stuff again and get stuffed like last night, Tampa bay will be a long day.

I don't think anyone is putting the loss wholly on McNair. The offensive line failed, once again. But the talk all though the offseason was that McNair would compensate for the offensive line problems and score points. It's not happening yet. I'm hoping like most people that the offense will just snap their fingers and play for real in 2 weeks.

**Mobtown** · 08-26-2006, 11:38 AM

Ok, but the Vikings effectively shut that down last night. And Tampa runs the same type of defense that the Vikings do, so that means Fassell better start figuring something out, because if we try this run-on-first-down stuff again and get stuffed like last night, Tampa bay will be a long day.

Read Point #1 in my earlier post. Fassel was running a crap O on purpose. Why would we show our hand two weeks before it matters?

I don't think anyone is putting the loss wholly on McNair. The offensive line failed, once again. But the talk all though the offseason was that McNair would compensate for the offensive line problems and score points. It's not happening yet. I'm hoping like most people that the offense will just snap their fingers and play for real in 2 weeks.

Well some are since they have pointed their fingers at Mac without mentioning any of the other factors in last night's loss. Anyone who said or thought that Mac would (as a singularity) be able to elevate the play of the O is only looking at half the picture. Mac can lead the horses to water, the rest of the O still has to bend down and take a drink.

**StingerNLG** · 08-26-2006, 11:53 AM

Read Point #1 in my earlier post. Fassel was running a crap O on purpose. Why would we show our hand two weeks before it matters?

Because you still have to get into a rhythm. Minnesota had no qualms about going downfield on us and scoring points. If we're tied 10-10 at halftime running a vanilla offense and we lose, then I'm with you. But scoring 3 points in 2 games? I can't buy into that just yet.

I just don't think that we would be giving away our playbook if McNair threw a sideline streak pass once in the last 2 games, that's all.

Well some are since they have pointed their fingers at Mac without mentioning any of the other factors in last night's loss. Anyone who said or thought that Mac would (as a singularity) be able to elevate the play of the O is only looking at half the picture. Mac can lead the horses to water, the rest of the O still has to bend down and take a drink.

Absolutely. There's a whole lot of hypocrisy going around the last 24 hours. Greg nailed it in the thread he just created. Anyone who doesn't understand that the offensive line is the primary issue just wanted McNair because his name wasn't Boller. But last night was proof that without an OL, it doesn't matter who the QB is. Part of my original post was pointing out again what Greg said; all the things that weren't excuses to Boller are now instant excuses for McNair's inability to score points. And it is an expected thing, no doubt.

But for some of us what the problem is, and was, still happen to be the same thing even with a new Quarterback.

**Mobtown** · 08-26-2006, 11:58 AM

Because you still have to get into a rhythm. Minnesota had no qualms about going downfield on us and scoring points.

Min isn't playing a clone of our D in two weeks. They could afford to let it hang out more than we can.

I just don't think that we would be giving away our playbook if McNair threw a sideline streak pass once in the last 2 games, that's all.

I agree, but as I said earlier...our first half was scripted. Also notice that we had no success running the ball either. NONE. The Vikings D was just on fire last night and we were not (rightly IMO) willing to pull out the big guns to try and stop them.

**Greg** · 08-26-2006, 12:01 PM

I doubt Fassel was running a "crap" offense on purpose. I don't think he instructed the OL to fail to block well. And if Clayton had "sat down" on that route Smoot would have still been all over him. Throwing that pass was a terrible decision. The DB was all over the Clayton, even more so if he sits down on the route. That ball should not have been thrown.

Again, when bad things happen with McNair the fingers point all over the place, when Boller does it is all his fault. On top of that, many guys are discounting Boller's play the last few games any way they can, including saying that he made a bunch of mistakes despite no picks and very nice statistics.