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  1. #1
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    The Way of the World



    Ron Suskind's newest book about forged CIA documents ordered from the White House is beginning to gain some traction:

    "The House Judiciary Committee has announced it will review reports that the White House in 2003 ordered the CIA to forge and disseminate false intelligence documents linking al-Qaeda and Iraq."

    The White House has has thus far proven to be "teflon" and this is the newest attempt by a journalist to expose the less than honorable administration. I am less than optimistic that anything will come from the initial review of reports but Suskind claims he has "edge to edge" proof for his claims with both "on the record" and "off the record" sources.

    There have been denials by the key players Suskind is going after such as Tenet and Rice but he shows how their rebuttals are classic "non-denial denials" as once seen during the Nixon era. We'll will have to see.

    Amy Goodman inteviews Suskind for an hour and her interview was released today. If interested here is the transcript and above the transcript is a link to a mp3 version to listen. If interested forward the mps to 7:45 to skip over the daily headlines and get directly to the interview.

    http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/1..._the_world_ron

    What I think is important is Suskind is really getting at how America through the Bush Administration has lost its "moral authority" in the world. Now you can debate his findings in the book and we will have to wait and see what comes from it but I think it is harder to deny that America is not the moral authority it was 10 years ago. Of course there might be folks on this board who deny the importance of being the moral authority but Suskind discusses quite eloquently in the interview how losing this authority is really what sets us up for future terrorist problems.

    I think the Europe and Russia's less than interested response to Bush's response to the Georgia crisis really demonstrates our lessening position in the international scene currently.

    Suskind's interview illustrates to a "t" why many of us progressives who are proud americans have been so conflicted the past 8 years and see Obama as at least a step in the right direction to restore the integrity of our country to what it once was.

    It is not about taxes, or energy or health care...I mean all of that is important but for some of us who have lived abroad for significant periods of time and frequently travel abroad and can see America through less of an ethnocentric lens and can see and hear from other perspectives what this country has become through the neocon movement, this election is more about the chance to restore America's moral authority in the world.

    The fact that McCain reframe's the potential of Obama to be popular in the international community as kin to Paris Hilton or Britney Spears' hollywood lives is just so off the point as so consistent with the ideology that has gotten us to where we are today. We have to be smarter.

    I encourage you not to be so hasty in your need to prove the "lefty" wrong and take the time to listen with intent to the interview.








  2. #2

    Re: The Way of the World

    What's Sandy Berger up to?

    PP




  3. #3
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    Re: The Way of the World

    Ron Suskind is about as un-baised as Ann Coulter.

    When someone with a little more cred comes forward, wake me up.

    Kinda funny you left out one little nugget -- that both CIA operatives who made the claim to Suskind have since recanted.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  4. #4
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    Re: The Way of the World

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Kinda funny you left out one little nugget -- that both CIA operatives who made the claim to Suskind have since recanted.
    as I said in my original post:

    "There have been denials by the key players Suskind is going after such as Tenet and Rice but he shows how their rebuttals are classic "non-denial denials" as once seen during the Nixon era. We'll will have to see."

    Did you listen to the interview or review the transcripts?

    Also I didn't know Coulter was a respected Pulitzer Prize winner, I guess I missed that.

    Seriously it would be nice to debate actual topics once in a while on this board instead of just loading up on liberal or conservative ammo. I was quite clear on my belief that this probably wouldn't lead to much but that being said, Suskind makes a clear case for America losing what was once its greatest asset...its moral authority in the world. If you don't believe him then watch the news on Georgia.

    But in your need to prove "Lefty" wrong you couldn't either read the transcript and think about it or just ignore the post completely.








  5. #5
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    Re: The Way of the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne View Post
    Seriously it would be nice to debate actual topics once in a while on this board instead of just loading up on liberal or conservative ammo. I was quite clear on my belief that this probably wouldn't lead to much but that being said, Suskind makes a clear case for America losing what was once its greatest asset...its moral authority in the world. If you don't believe him then watch the news on Georgia.
    The denials came from the very two operatives he interviewed for the book, not Rice (who isnt even part of the CIA) or Tenant. The book recalls stories from agents Robert Richer and John Mcguire -- it's those two who recanted.

    As for Tenant's "non-denial, denial", here is what he had to say ....

    "Tenet, in a statement distributed by the White House, also denied CIA involvement in the supposedly fake letter. "There was no such order from the White House to me nor, to the best of my knowledge, was anyone from CIA ever involved in any such effort," he said.

    "It is well established that, at my direction, CIA resisted efforts by some in the administration to paint a picture of Iraqi-al-Qaida connections that went beyond the evidence," Tenet said. "The notion that I would suddenly reverse our stance and have created and planted false evidence that was contrary to our own beliefs is ridiculous.'"

    -- http://www.newsweek.com/id/150914/page/2

    This coming from a guy who had no qualms about throwing Bush under the bus in his book for other things he was doing wrong. Sounds like a pretty solid denial to me.

    I find it funny that the same "moral authority" always seems to be a problem when a Repub is in the White House then all of a sudden is oh so better when a Dem is sitting in the oval office.

    Left-Leaning journalists have been playing this game for decades. It's also like the "homeless problem". When Reagan / Bush 41 was in the WH, there were glaring headlines on a weekly basis about how bad the homeless problems were in this country. The second Clinton was elected, all that went away.

    You cant debate something when the premise is flawed -- and that's exactly the problem with Suskind. Liberals play the premise game all the time ....

    Guns ARE the cause of violent crime / murder
    Man IS responsible for Global Warming
    Higher taxes WILL bring the deficit down
    The US's reputation around the world IS bad

    The left loves to talk about Bush and his absolutes yet seem to have quite a few of their own.
    Last edited by HoustonRaven; 08-14-2008 at 09:32 AM.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  6. #6
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    Re: The Way of the World

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    The denials came from the very two operatives he interviewed for the book, not Rice (who isnt even part of the CIA) or Tenant. The book recalls stories from agents Robert Richer and John Mcguire -- it's those two who recanted.
    Sure Richer recanted by saying: "“I never received direction from George Tenet or anyone else in my chain of command to fabricate a document from Habbush as outlined in Mr. Suskind’s book.”

    After being on the record saying,

    "I would naturally--I would probably stand on my, basically, my reputation and say it came from the vice president."

    I won't take the time to read trough the lines of that denial but to say the "premise is flawed" is not all together true.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    As for Tenant's "non-denial, denial", here is what he had to say ....

    "Tenet, in a statement distributed by the White House, also denied CIA involvement in the supposedly fake letter. "There was no such order from the White House to me nor, to the best of my knowledge, was anyone from CIA ever involved in any such effort," he said.

    "It is well established that, at my direction, CIA resisted efforts by some in the administration to paint a picture of Iraqi-al-Qaida connections that went beyond the evidence," Tenet said. "The notion that I would suddenly reverse our stance and have created and planted false evidence that was contrary to our own beliefs is ridiculous.'"
    "to the best of my knowledge" This is "non-denial, denial"

    The truth is neither you or I have the ability to either prove or disprove this claim. I have said all along it will be up for review and we will learn more.

    Tenet, Rice, Richer and Mcguire all offer up less than air-tight denials.



    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    I find it funny that the same "moral authority" always seems to be a problem when a Repub is in the White House then all of a sudden is oh so better when a Dem is sitting in the oval office.
    It only been a glaring international problem recently.


    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    The US's reputation around the world IS bad
    I have no reason to make this a platform for the necessity of change for me other than I have lived it. People in foreign countries usually want to come to America because they think they will live an immigrant's dream and there still are those chances especially when making $8 an hour is a good daily wage in most developing nations. Spend time with the non-working class in these nations and a very different perspective will emerge.








  7. #7
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    Re: The Way of the World

    Part II of the Ron Suskind interview with Amy Goodman. In Part II, Amy includes Rep. John Conyers, chair of the House Judiciary Committee who states that he is,

    "the third day into the most critical investigation of the entire Bush administration"

    http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/1...als_bush_admin

    Ron Suskind talks more about the use of the Iraqi Intelligence Director Habbush and the $5,000,000 he was paid to be hush about the forged White House letter. Also Ron talks about his conversations with Richard Dearlove, the former head of MI6.








  8. #8
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    Re: The Way of the World

    Ron Suskind, Amy Goodman and John Conyers .....

    There's an impartial bunch ....

    Lemme guess, they dont like Bush all that much?

    Was Michael Moore not available or something?
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  9. #9
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    Re: The Way of the World

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Ron Suskind, Amy Goodman and John Conyers .....

    There's an impartial bunch ....

    Lemme guess, they dont like Bush all that much?

    Was Michael Moore not available or something?
    Truth be told about 80% of the world does not like Bush so whenever you get three people together there would be fairly good chance you would have an "impartial bunch".

    But trying to get around your own bias and back on topic, I think whenever the chair of the House Judiciary Committee comes on a news program to speak about an issue, it raises the level of importance of that issue.

    You should try listening to the interviews before being so critical or just ignore the thread. Refusing to do either, just makes you look like another angry Fox news dude.

    This is about your country of which you speak so proudly. There is a compelling case being made here which only becomes more interesting when the chair of the House Judiciary Committee agrees to be part of the interview.

    As an American whether right or left, I would be angry and very embarrassed if these claims were true. Hopefully they are not for whatever shred of decency this administration will leave behind will then be completely diminished.








  10. #10
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    Re: The Way of the World

    What you're saying and doing is the Liberal equivalent of me reading a bunch of anti-Obama books, web sites and hard right politicians and then casting judgment, all the while suggesting this is somehow an unbiased assertion that has zero agenda, AND then question MY bias.

    So you're holy trinity of Suskind, Goodman and Conyers have no agenda but I do.

    Got it.

    Yes, as an American, I too would be very angry "if these allegations were true". However, the very people Suskind is touting all over the place have all said, for lack of a better term, that he his nuts.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  11. #11
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    Re: The Way of the World

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    So you're holy trinity of Suskind, Goodman and Conyers have no agenda but I do.
    This coming from the poster who so often accuses me of "typical liberal attacking of the person not the idea" (pardon the paraphrase).

    At least if I do attack character it is the likes of Annie who has no real accomplishments vs. you character attacking the chair of the House Judiciary Committee, a Pulitzer Prize winning author and an investigative reporter with so many international awards I won't begin to list them. At least be consistent or don't neatly categorize it as a "liberal" thing.



    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Yes, as an American, I too would be very angry "if these allegations were true".
    You should step out of your neoconned box and listen to the interviews then.


    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    However, the very people Suskind is touting all over the place have all said, for lack of a better term, that he his nuts.
    Then add to the thread and post the links. Just being a blowhard is not really convincing me of your case. Show a link, I am as interested in what dispproves Suskind at this point. But saying that Tenet, Richer, Rice and Mcguire all deny their involvement does not add anything. The one thing Amy Goodman does in the interview is question Suskind on all of these denials quote by quote. He does a good job at picking through what their denials are and what they are not. They are classic non-denial, denials more than likely written by a legal team. You lived through Iran-Contra...you understand that, I am sure.

    If you have credible links showing Suskind to be mentally unfit, I am interested. That's my field.

    Or you can just try to blow harder than me whihch is probably a waste of both of our time.








  12. #12
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    Re: The Way of the World

    Libby Questioned Over Forged CIA Iraq Letter

    House Judiciary Committee Chair John Conyers has sent letters of inquiry to Vice President Cheney’s former chief of staff Lewis Scooter Libby and other former officials. Conyers is investigating a report in Ron Suskind’s new book that the White House ordered the CIA in 2003 to forge a letter from the head of Iraqi intelligence to Saddam Hussein in an attempt to portray a false link between Iraq and al-Qaeda. In his letter to Libby, Conyers wrote to Libby, “I have become very concerned with the possibility that this Administration may have violated federal law by using the resources of our intelligence agencies to influence domestic policy processes or opinion.

    - democracynow.org








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