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  1. #31

    Re: Troy Smith edging out competition



    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah W View Post
    Willis, Heap and Mason are all good enough to start almost anywhere. Grubbs and Brown look like they will be very good, and would be starting on most teams. Williams and Clayton both looked good in 2006. Flynn, Terry, Brown and Chester played a lot of snaps in 2006 on a line that only allowed 17 sacks, so the fact that we have young and unproven guys, like Rice, Gaither, Yanda and others, does not mean they will not be good.

    Bet the other way if you must, but don't try to convice me with pure pessimism based soley on last season, because the Cleveland Clowns won 10 games for the first time, and the Cards and Lions looked like solid playoff teams for the first 8 weeks. Eli Manning was getting publicly punked for the first 8 weeks last year, but who had his ugly mug on the Disney Land spot?

    Derrick Anderson and Jamal Lewis both got a whole lot better at playing football when they got out of the Billick system, so I wan't to see what it does for the rest of the team, including Boller to work with a proven OC, before I conceed the lack of talon argument.
    Yes, McGahee is a very solid RB. I dunno where our offense would've been without him last year. Heap, when on the field, is very good as well. No arguing there. Mason is a solid possession guy. He poses no major threat as far as a game breaker. Neither do Clayton and Williams. Williams has done VERY little to garner the praise he gets on some of these message boards. Sorry, he just hasn't. Clayton is a #2 at best. We have no legit #1 WR.

    The middle of the young (Grubbs/Brown/Yanda) looks very promising. Chester has basically already lost his job at center. The tackle position is VERY suspect as inserting Gaither in at LT is gonna be a work in progress. As far as Terry on the right side? Well, we see how long that lasts once Harbaugh and Cameron see it in person. Because he's a LT, period.

    And believe me, I'm not basing my opinion on just last year. I'm basing it on what I see.

    It basically boils down to this. You believe Billick was a terrible coach as far as the offense. IMO, while I didn't always agree with his approach and play calling, the players are MUCH more accountable than the coach. They flat out couldn't execute many plays that were design just fine.

    I'm not sure what your point is about the other teams you mentioned. Yes, the Lions started out strong and faded big time. So what? The Browns won 10 games and missed the playoffs. Again, how does this pertain to how well the Ravens offense will do? Certainly you're not gonna tell me that the Ravens have nearly the same talent on offense that Cleveland has. Are you?

    PP




  2. #32

    Re: Troy Smith edging out competition

    I mean even teams that always lose like Cleveland AZ, and detroit can even auire enough talent to compete in todays era of parity. The difference between the best and worse was never more evident than last year week 13 when Boller alomst beat the Pats. They were on a 12 game win streak and we were in the midst of a 9 game swoon, but would have beat them if not for an untimley time out or a number of suspect 4th down flags.

    Back to the Billick factor. I was not for firing him at first, even though I had no confidence in his playcalling/ gameplanning or offensive coordination, I did at least respect and admire his personality and leadership style.

    From putting the wrong guy on the feild at the wrong time, to the 3 yard out route on 3rd and 7, to the 10 false starts for every off side penalty they drew. The shotgun formation 3 times in a row, with Willis on the bench and Boller throwing passes in the dirt on 2nd 3rd and 4th and 1 last year in Buff was beyond my understanding of what is prudent.
    Not going for the win in Miami. Not going for the TD so many times.

    I know he was not personally out there fumbling the ball with no contact or throwing into tripple coverage, while up by 10 against the wind lat in the 3rd vs NE, but he was calling the plays and playing the wrong guy.

    He should have had a roster spot open for the kicker and we would have beat the Clowns, but since he had Stover kicking to Cribbs at the 10 yard line, we got beat in OT.

    Even if Billick was not personally responsible for half the mistakes made, how many times, if ever, have you watched a game he called and said that was a great job by him? Gilbride had a great run in the post season last year scheming up efficient O for NY, who had lost Shockey and had the RB and #1 WR nursing bad knee bruises and strains. How "dominant was the Clown O line before 2007? Gaither is capable of matching the season Joe Thomas did as a rookie, and Grubbs, Brown and Yanda/Chester, have the potential to be an even better interior line than they have. RT is still a uestion mark, but they lost (Cle) their RT for 4 games for steroids, so perhaps they will be juicing up Terry this offseason.

    The turnovers and injuries were bigger, more obvious reasons for the faliure last year, but there were a lot of injuries and turnovers in part because of bad playcalling and scheme.

    Have I mentioned the playclock issues with Billick? The lack of motion, audibles, changing formation? I really could go on and on in detail, but I think it will be very obvious as soon as they put on the pads, that there is a lot of talent on O, and Billick was not good at managing it on many levels.




  3. #33

    Re: Troy Smith edging out competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah W View Post
    I mean even teams that always lose like Cleveland AZ, and detroit can even auire enough talent to compete in todays era of parity. The difference between the best and worse was never more evident than last year week 13 when Boller alomst beat the Pats. They were on a 12 game win streak and we were in the midst of a 9 game swoon, but would have beat them if not for an untimley time out or a number of suspect 4th down flags.

    Back to the Billick factor. I was not for firing him at first, even though I had no confidence in his playcalling/ gameplanning or offensive coordination, I did at least respect and admire his personality and leadership style.

    From putting the wrong guy on the feild at the wrong time, to the 3 yard out route on 3rd and 7, to the 10 false starts for every off side penalty they drew. The shotgun formation 3 times in a row, with Willis on the bench and Boller throwing passes in the dirt on 2nd 3rd and 4th and 1 last year in Buff was beyond my understanding of what is prudent.
    Not going for the win in Miami. Not going for the TD so many times.

    I know he was not personally out there fumbling the ball with no contact or throwing into tripple coverage, while up by 10 against the wind lat in the 3rd vs NE, but he was calling the plays and playing the wrong guy.

    He should have had a roster spot open for the kicker and we would have beat the Clowns, but since he had Stover kicking to Cribbs at the 10 yard line, we got beat in OT.

    Even if Billick was not personally responsible for half the mistakes made, how many times, if ever, have you watched a game he called and said that was a great job by him? Gilbride had a great run in the post season last year scheming up efficient O for NY, who had lost Shockey and had the RB and #1 WR nursing bad knee bruises and strains. How "dominant was the Clown O line before 2007? Gaither is capable of matching the season Joe Thomas did as a rookie, and Grubbs, Brown and Yanda/Chester, have the potential to be an even better interior line than they have. RT is still a uestion mark, but they lost (Cle) their RT for 4 games for steroids, so perhaps they will be juicing up Terry this offseason.

    The turnovers and injuries were bigger, more obvious reasons for the faliure last year, but there were a lot of injuries and turnovers in part because of bad playcalling and scheme.

    Have I mentioned the playclock issues with Billick? The lack of motion, audibles, changing formation? I really could go on and on in detail, but I think it will be very obvious as soon as they put on the pads, that there is a lot of talent on O, and Billick was not good at managing it on many levels.
    No doubt that the difference between a winning season and losing season is very small.

    You mention all these things that Billick did wrong and I ask, why couldn't the players execute the play? I was at the Buffalo game. I saw Boller throw to a wide open Clayton that would've been a first down on that last drive but Boller threw it at his feet. People screamed for McGahee there. What if he gives to McGahee up the middle and Flynn gets rolled (as usual) and he gets stuffed. Then you have the "why is he running when time is a factor on the last drive" crowd.

    I'm not saying Billick was a top notch game manager. What I am saying is that countless times the players flat out stunk the joint up at crucial times.

    The NE game was Boller's fault. No excuse for that piss poor throw. Billick was going to the jugular and Boller crapped the bed again.

    The Browns line was dominant due to the Thomas pick and the Steinbach signing. Two studs. Thomas came in a dominated from day 1. Jared Gaither? Hell, the team isn't even sold on him having the work ethic to be a starter, let alone a stud LT. Gaither might be capable of being great. Lots of guys are. I see you are careful by using the word capable and I would just say this. It would be a miracle if Gaither came close to performing as well as Thomas did last year. Dude was a monster from day 1.

    As far as the roster goes. Ozzie Newsome controls it. Always has.

    Im not sure why you are mentioning Chester. He's a backup and he was basically dominated all last year. And while the middle of the line has the makings of something special, the two bookends are massive question marks. I cannot just say that it's gonna be OK because frankly, I don't think it will. And let's be honest, we must get good play, especially from the LT, for any QB to see success.

    I'm baffled by your statement that alot of the injuries and turnovers this team had is tied to bad play calling and scheme. Seriously, that's a little ridiculous. Turnovers are made by being careless and not executing. And the scheme somehow contributing to injuries? Cmon.

    I will contend that this team still lacks talent on offense to be a legit unit.

    PP




  4. #34

    Re: Troy Smith edging out competition

    Smith>Boller. Case closed.




  5. #35
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    Re: Troy Smith edging out competition

    Unless Troy Smith shows significantly greater skills than Boller, and assuming that Flacco carries the clipboard, I expect Harbaugh to go with the more experienced Boller. Harbaugh also has watched the tape of Smith's dismal performance against the Seahawks. There's little logic in gambling on Smith in 2008, because he is not likely to play a meaningful role in 2009, when Flacco should take over fulltime. Smith should be a very cheap backup, but I don't believe our organization projects him as an NFL starter. He hasn't grown since arriving here.
    There's little logic in going with a 5 year vet who has shown no signs of improvement. Why waste your time with a below average QB who will not be here past this season?

    Also your comment about Harbaugh watching Smith's game against the Seahawks is absolutely ridiculous. Harbaugh has also watched 5 years of dreadful play from Boller. Somehow you failed to mention that in your post. I wonder why?




  6. #36

    Re: Troy Smith edging out competition

    Quote Originally Posted by purplepoe View Post
    I will contend that this team still lacks talent on offense to be a legit unit.
    I agree 100% with this statement. Be mindful, PP, that when the season starts the offense will have comparatively greater success anyway.

    Why?

    DC's will not have tape of the new Ravens offensive scheme yet.

    Anyway I'll be curious to see how we look over the course of the year as defenses are better & better prepared.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  7. #37

    Re: Troy Smith edging out competition

    Quote Originally Posted by festivus View Post
    I agree 100% with this statement. Be mindful, PP, that when the season starts the offense will have comparatively greater success anyway.

    Why?

    DC's will not have tape of the new Ravens offensive scheme yet.

    Anyway I'll be curious to see how we look over the course of the year as defenses are better & better prepared.
    DC's might not have tape of the Ravens running this new scheme but they will certainly have tape of Cameron's schemes from SD and Miami.

    PP




  8. #38
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    Re: Troy Smith edging out competition

    Troy Smith may be better than Boller, but the difference is not enough to put this team into the top half of the league. And our WRs, let's be honest, these guys don't scare anyone.

    Don't put a clipboard in Flacco's hand just yet. If he clearly outperforms the other two, and I think this likely, then the odds of him starting the season are good.


    WORLD CHAMPIONS 2000 * 2012




  9. #39

    Re: Troy Smith edging out competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Mista T View Post
    How much of the Troy Smith hoopla is the media wanting to put something in print, and feeding to the Anybody-but-Boller mentality that is obvious among some Baltimore fans? I'll believe that Troy Smith will be the starter only when I see him start against Cincy. OTAs and minicamps are virtually meaningless, especially, for the skill position players learning a new and complex offensive system. The competition starts in Training Camp, as Harbaugh has stated.

    Unless Troy Smith shows significantly greater skills than Boller, and assuming that Flacco carries the clipboard, I expect Harbaugh to go with the more experienced Boller. Harbaugh also has watched the tape of Smith's dismal performance against the Seahawks. There's little logic in gambling on Smith in 2008, because he is not likely to play a meaningful role in 2009, when Flacco should take over fulltime. Smith should be a very cheap backup, but I don't believe our organization projects him as an NFL starter. He hasn't grown since arriving here.




    What is it with this word "hate"? Sounds high schoolish. How can any Ravens fans "hate" any Ravens player? If there are players to "hate", they wear Black and Gold, or Orange and Brown. We can argue about which players should be starting and used in which capacity, but "hating" any Ravens player -- even Harper le Bel -- is downright inappropriate!




    So, now Troy Smith is supposed to be another Brees? Get real ... Flacco was drafted in the 1st round because our FO decided that there was no QB on the roster adequate to upgrade the passing game to the level needed. There are always exceptions to the rule. Sometimes late rounders bloom, and sometimes 6 footers make it as QB -- Doug Flutie was only 5' 9". But I don't think that our FO believes that Smith will be another Flutie (or Brees, or Brady).

    As to the 6 foot legend: next time you have an opportunity to see Troy Smith standing up next to one of the grown-ups, judge the height difference for yourself. I believe that he's closer to 5' 10" than 6' 0". Too small to see over 6' 5" linemen. That's why he was passed over by 31 other GM's 5 times each.
    Not Surprising.

    So basically Harbaugh has had Smith taking most of the snaps with the starters means nothing?

    So now Smith has gone from a guy who wouldn't be in the league when his contract runs out and a CFL guy to a "cheap backup" who we just don't view as our long time starter. I mean, no shit we don't really view him as a long term guy, we just spent the 18 pick on Flacco.

    But as compared to Boller, Smith obviously is showing the coaches something is they are giving him the majority of the reps with the 1's.

    Boller's 2 big and basically only pluses he had going for him here are no longer...Billick is gone and he is in the same boat having to learn a new offense.




  10. #40
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    Re: Troy Smith edging out competition

    But as compared to Boller, Smith obviously is showing the coaches something is they are giving him the majority of the reps with the 1's.
    They could be giving him an extended look because there is a limited amount of tape on him. Boller is a known quantity, so why spend what little time they have watching him throw dirtballs? That could be the reason. Nothing is obvious at this point.


    WORLD CHAMPIONS 2000 * 2012




  11. #41

    Re: Troy Smith edging out competition

    Quote Originally Posted by camdenyard View Post
    Nothing is obvious at this point.
    That's not true. Boller's value is obvious. We know very well what he brings to the table.

    I think the most telling statement was made here:
    http://www.profootball24x7.com/colum...8&view=archive
    It seems pretty clear that they had that first camp and realized there's really a lot less talent on this roster than was made out to be. I don't think the brass approached the draft as though they were only a few players away from heading to another Superbowl, and I don't feel like the coaching staff is going in a direction where they'll value experience more than potential.

    i.e. If Smith doesn't blow the doors off, I don't feel they'll automatically go with Boller instead.

    - C -




  12. #42

    Re: Troy Smith edging out competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    But as compared to Boller, Smith obviously is showing the coaches something is they are giving him the majority of the reps with the 1's.
    .

    hmm, I read it was 50/50 at the latest camp, maybe he's regressing? haha just a joke, btu you are grabbing at straws.




  13. #43

    Re: Troy Smith edging out competition

    Quote Originally Posted by purplepoe
    The NE game was Boller's fault. No excuse for that piss poor throw. Billick was going to the jugular and Boller crapped the bed again.
    PP, I agree with your argument that lack of execution from the players was probably a bigger problem than Billick's playcalling, but you just about lost me with this example. The New England game was Boller's fault? You can pick a lot of games where you could definitely argue that Boller's performance led to a Ravens loss, but New England? There were some flukey things that happened in the Patriot's last drive (Rex's timeout, the illegal procedure penalty, etc.) but Boller was on the sideline during that weird drive. You can blame a lot of losses on him but not that one.

    As far as the lack of offensive talent goes, this could be true, but I think our receiving corps is a little better than most here seem to think. I think the bigger key is if our pass protection can give whoever our QB will be some time. There was a reason we were down to our third string QB by the 15th game last year.




  14. #44

    Re: Troy Smith edging out competition

    Quote Originally Posted by highwater View Post
    PP, I agree with your argument that lack of execution from the players was probably a bigger problem than Billick's playcalling, but you just about lost me with this example. The New England game was Boller's fault? You can pick a lot of games where you could definitely argue that Boller's performance led to a Ravens loss, but New England? There were some flukey things that happened in the Patriot's last drive (Rex's timeout, the illegal procedure penalty, etc.) but Boller was on the sideline during that weird drive. You can blame a lot of losses on him but not that one.

    As far as the lack of offensive talent goes, this could be true, but I think our receiving corps is a little better than most here seem to think. I think the bigger key is if our pass protection can give whoever our QB will be some time. There was a reason we were down to our third string QB by the 15th game last year.
    I should've been more clear.

    The interception that Boller threw at the goal line was his fault and a huge play in the game. He was an awful throw and he had no business even trying it.

    My response was in the context of turnovers and who's fault they are etc...

    On the whole, Boller played fine in that game but again, a huge mental gaffe proved costly.

    PP




  15. #45

    Re: Troy Smith edging out competition

    Quote Originally Posted by purplepoe View Post
    We also had a defense where pretty much every starter was in their prime.

    Not so much now.

    The Browns and Bengals were terrible then. Different story now.

    Do you think the 2008 Defense can carry a subpar offense to the playoffs? I don't.

    PP
    Sure. 2 short years ago we had the most dominant defense in the NFL since our own in 2000, IMO...so the D should be able to carry us a decent bit. You knwo that I feel losing AD was a death blow last year, and I stand by it, but the d is still going to be damn good.

    In fact, I'd say the DL is better now than 03. Either way, you never know is my point, and I guarantee that Boller, Smith, or Flacco will be better than Anthony Wright.




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