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  1. #61

    Re: Ray Lewis Contract demands?

    If anyone wants to break the Ravens cap on any player they're no doubt more a fan of that player than the team they root for.
    SB has already said he will do what it takes to keep ray, I guess he is a fan of ray and not of the team. I'm glad we have an owner who has the balls to give the fans what they want. :word
    WOW! I feel so fortunate that the Ravens did what they had to do to make this happen. Thank you. My Heart is with the Raven....My Heart is with Baltimore and its great fans. What can I say. Here We Go!!! --Ray Lewis
    No, Thank you Ray... :ww:
    _________________
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  2. #62

    Re: Ray Lewis Contract demands?

    Quote Originally Posted by UKRavenStockers View Post
    I'll agree that Ngata has the potential to be the better all round DT and probably already offers a bit more of a push up the middle on passing downs than Gregg, but he simply can't match him in his play against the run. I work for a game analysis website and the distance by which Gregg grades out so consistently better against the run just about anyone on this team and just about better than any DT in the league swings it for me. I'm not allowed to analyse Ravens games for the site so I can only go off what I watch and my discussions with the other guys on the site but what shines through is the destructive force of Ngata that simply isn't as consistent yet as Gregg is in his sheer dominance against the running game. That's not a slight on Ngata, there may not be a more high motor, high energy DT in the NFL than Gregg. Ngata has a good motor, if he ever gets a great motor he'll be totally unblockable every week like he was against the Patriots.
    Again, like I said, your answer has validity. I was basing my answer mostly piggybacking on Filmstudy's work(thank you) in which Ngata played a MUCH higher percentage of snaps last year, and the average result of the play was a FULL YARD better then Gregg's agaisnt the run. So perhaps Ngata does not directly affect the run game as much, btu his presence is FELT EVERY down he is on the field. He is a monster in the middle that constantly causes havor. Whiel it's nice to have an attack dog DT liek Gregg that drags the ball carrier down from behind due to surprising athleticism and an amazing motor, it is jsut as important, if not more, IMO, that Ray Lewis has a clear path to the ballcarrier. Again, I'm nto even compeltely disagreeing, jsut calling it hwo I see it, and how some relatively in depth statistic analysis saw it. .





  3. #63
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    Re: Ray Lewis Contract demands?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Again, like I said, your answer has validity. I was basing my answer mostly piggybacking on Filmstudy's work(thank you) in which Ngata played a MUCH higher percentage of snaps last year, and the average result of the play was a FULL YARD better then Gregg's agaisnt the run. So perhaps Ngata does not directly affect the run game as much, btu his presence is FELT EVERY down he is on the field. He is a monster in the middle that constantly causes havor. Whiel it's nice to have an attack dog DT liek Gregg that drags the ball carrier down from behind due to surprising athleticism and an amazing motor, it is jsut as important, if not more, IMO, that Ray Lewis has a clear path to the ballcarrier. Again, I'm nto even compeltely disagreeing, jsut calling it hwo I see it, and how some relatively in depth statistic analysis saw it. .
    Yep, as you say I think you can make a spin either way of who is the better DT but for me right now it is Gregg, and whilst the analysis website I work for has a smaller sample size (now, watch out for late June when the site is re-launched completely revamped with many many more games analysed) but much as I love fimstudys' work, I take in depth tape break down over statistical analysis every day of the week.

    On the topic of discussing our LBs and DTs as we are in this thread, I think our DTs are more important to this team than any of our LBs. Yes Ray is the ra-ra leader, but it's Ngata and Gregg that I think make this team hum. They never or extremely rarely (if a team trusts of a back or tight end to block one of our DTs, more fool them) that they allow an interior lineman through, and if it is it's usually an undersized centre who can't contribute to blocking the DTs anyway. My next comment will probably cause some massive flaming and I'm going to run away and finish some work to avoid being burned, but I think you would see a much bigger drop off in this defence if we were to lose Gregg or Ngata long term and be replaced by Justin Bannan or the likes than if we were to see Scott or Lewis go down and be replaced by Nick Greisen, who I think was our most important unrestricted signing this off-season.





  4. #64

    Re: Ray Lewis Contract demands?

    I don't disagree with a word of it... no flaming here.





  5. #65

    Re: Ray Lewis Contract demands?

    Quote Originally Posted by crazyraven View Post
    This morning I woke and read that Suggs will now be a *hybrid defensive player* This team can be creative and make things work for the guys who are the core of the team. They tend to bend over backwards for their number 1 draft picks.
    .
    So? Sure, they can be creative and get a new tag created, but they won't be able to get the NFL (and other teams) to let them get around having to account for the cap implications of such a huge contract. It's counterproductive for other teams to allow the Ravens out from under such a deal. It's not a $400K difference like the tag issue, it could be a $10-20M difference that teams are just going to let the Ravens get away with.

    So, you want to go with 4 years? That's gonna mean over a $10M+ hit every year of the deal with probably close to a $20M hit by the 4th year. That may be fine for a guy entering his prime, but it's highly unlikely that Ray will still be in his prime in 4 years. Whether it's Peyton money or just the highest paid on the team (which will be pretty close to Peyton money once Suggs gets done), it'll still have a major impact in a couple of years.

    Quote Originally Posted by crazyraven View Post
    BMoreRavor didnt shoot down anything. Go back and check what I wrote and you will see that your facts arent straight. Being the highest paid raven doesnt equate to Manning money. Do I care if Ray gets it, NO i dont. What ray makes doesnt effect me. Only Salary Cap geeks (no offese to anyone) are ruled by that nonesense. I watch football for the players and the excitement. You go crunch numbers if it makes you happy.
    Umm, no you may not be ruled by the Salary Cap, but the Ravens are. Sorry, but it's an inescapable factor. And, while Ray may be highly regarded now, the question is will be deserve that kind of contract in 4 years when he's 37? That's the issue when you give a bonus that big.

    BTW, Bisciotti said they would probably outbid other teams. It wasn't an absolute and if Manning money is the goal, then - friendship notwithstanding - I have a feeling that Ray will be playing elsewhere.
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

    Follow me on Twitter @ravenssalarycap





  6. #66
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    Re: Ray Lewis Contract demands?

    Quote Originally Posted by UKRavenStockers View Post
    I think you would see a much bigger drop off in this defence if we were to lose Gregg or Ngata long term and be replaced by Justin Bannan or the likes than if we were to see Scott or Lewis go down and be replaced by Nick Greisen, who I think was our most important unrestricted signing this off-season.
    Agree, and partially because we have LB that are close to the level of the starters, so the replacement skill drop will also not have as big of an impact.

    Ngata is the beast for sure. Also agree on your analysis of Gregg and add that there is something more intangible with his presence. There is a "glue" factor for want of a better word, someone whose presence has things functioning better. It is far easier for me to identify these kinds of players in basketball (where is can be called "doing the dirty work"), but in football identifying those kinds of players is much more difficult for me. Gregg though is the one on our team (IMO) whose presence makes others better.
    Trevor made the defense better and we felt his absence, but that was ability based. Kelly is harder to see because he isn't recognized as pro-bowl superstar. I fully agree, his function is essential to how good we are, without him we won't be as good and won't really be able to easily explain why.





  7. #67

    Re: Ray Lewis Contract demands?

    If I were Ray I would look to sign a respectable 2 year deal and then retire so I'm not rolling around in a wheelchair when I'm 50. Unfortunately Ray has enough illigitimate children to fill 3 orphanages and he can't afford to do that.





  8. #68

    Re: Ray Lewis Contract demands?

    Quote Originally Posted by crazyraven View Post
    Oh you make me laugh too, sir.


    oh boy, you got to be kidding. We are dealing with semantics now. Regardless you compared SA to this the situation not me...you say I make you laugh.


    Bingo, Why you have to go on an on isnt going to change anything.
    You think Mcalister (snicker) is the best player on this team, so be it, I'm not going to argue with you over that. Aside from some of the vocal minority, Trust me, people would look at you like this if you said that to a someone in person
    You snicker at the thought that Cmac, at this point in his career, is better than Ray Lewis?

    I tend to associate myself with objective people who understand football. And believe me, many of those people, not to mention people I just have conversations with about the Ravens, don't think Ray is the best player on this team right now.

    Is he still a very good player? Sure. Is he worth being the highest paid player on the Ravens? Absolutely not. You can talk about vocal minority and be obtuse as you want, but we that live in reality know he's not worth that.

    And yes, the Alexander situation is absolutely applicable to this. He was coming off a great year but his workload had been high. The Seahawks were put in a difficult situation because Alexander was a fan favorite and at the top of this game (moreso than Ray is now) and they caved and gave him a shitload. 2 years later? Cut.

    And yet you propose that we give a 33 year old Ray Lewis substantially more than that?

    Please tell me how you just continually ignore the cap as if it doesn't apply to Ray Lewis and the Ravens.

    PP





  9. #69

    Re: Ray Lewis Contract demands?

    When have the Ravens ever over paid to keep even guys they could not lose?
    J.O. got a lot of money but not as much as he could have as a free agent. Same thig with Ray and Reed. They got record setting contracts, but still a bit less than other guys got right after.

    The Transition tag is the way to allow him to test his market value without risking much or getting anything if we choose not to match.
    The lower level franchise tag option is also a good starting point for contract talks.

    The guy is not going anywhere and he is not going to sabotage our future salary cap.
    They got this part of the game down pretty well.

    Hopefully they got the offensive woes fixed so we can win a SB before Ray retires.





  10. #70

    Re: Ray Lewis Contract demands?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah W View Post
    When have the Ravens ever over paid to keep even guys they could not lose?
    J.O. got a lot of money but not as much as he could have as a free agent. Same thig with Ray and Reed. They got record setting contracts, but still a bit less than other guys got right after.

    The Transition tag is the way to allow him to test his market value without risking much or getting anything if we choose not to match.
    The lower level franchise tag option is also a good starting point for contract talks.

    The guy is not going anywhere and he is not going to sabotage our future salary cap.
    They got this part of the game down pretty well.

    Hopefully they got the offensive woes fixed so we can win a SB before Ray retires.
    The Ravens have notoriously dragged their feet when it comes to getting big contracts done with their own guys. I dunno why you think JO and the like would've gotten more on the open market when we set the bar. So what that they were here. If a guy's in the last year of his contract and negotiating with his current team, it's pretty much like negotiating as a free agent.

    Like you said, they all got record deals. Cmac's deal was pretty much on par with Bailey's and could've been lower except the FO dragged their feet, franchised him for a year, then paid out the ass.

    They got what part of the game down pretty well? Seems to me those HUGE deals are hamstringing the team right now. If the FO was proactive in some of those cases, they wouldn't be as cap strapped.

    By the way, a good way to cure those offensive woes is to bring in some guys that cost money (i.e. cap) and can help the offense.

    Look, if Ray and the Ravens can agree on a reasonable contract (3 or 4 years) that's cool.

    But I'm 100% against breaking the bank for him. Sorry, it just doesn't make sense.

    PP





  11. #71

    Re: Ray Lewis Contract demands?

    The only thing Gregg has over Ngata is effort. For the best player, I'd say a healthy McAlister, Reed, Ray, and the Ravens' version of McGahee are up there.





  12. #72
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    Norwich, England
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    Re: Ray Lewis Contract demands?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miz89 View Post
    The only thing Gregg has over Ngata is effort.
    It's not, at this stage of their careers Ngata has everything natural (pure strength and athleticism) over Gregg, but Gregg has the motor and more importantly the better and more consistent technique in engaging and beating blockers. That is the telling factor at the moment for me between them, Ngata is a bigger force in isolation, but for a full season or a full game he's still not on Gregg's level just yet.





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