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Thread: Savage on scouting and drafting
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02-23-2018, 06:47 PM #13
Re: Savage on scouting and drafting
Great post as all have said
What has seemed clear is that there is a did-connect between the players we draft and the scheme we put them in. You would draft a Shaq like player to fit with the golden state warriors. I think too many coaches try to change a player to fit their system because they want to prove how smart they are and show they can make anything work.
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02-23-2018, 07:08 PM #14Regular 1st Stringer
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Re: Savage on scouting and drafting
This thread, for me, ties in with the Crockett Gillmore thread.
I hated the Gillmore selection. A tight end whose Combine numbers were that of a nimble footed OL was not worhy of the 99th overall selection.
But why was he selected?
Gary Kubiak.
Kubiak's son was Gillmore's teammate. Kubiak watched Gillmore while watching his son.
Here's the story.
https://www.coloradoan.com/story/spo...vens/22020981/
This was an indication to me that coach's were shopping for the groceries. Maybe it was a “let's make the new guy feel comfortable and give him the toy he wants.” I would have been inclined to believe that had it not been for the 2013 purge and draft that included John Simon, a player so beloved by the OSU head coach that he named his son after him (or some such thing).
I can't help but think there's been more conflict on draft day between the scouts, who see and project talent, and the coaches (particularly the head coach) who want players with the character that will accept coaching and fight through adversity.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, something about John Harbaugh's coaching seems to cap the ceilings of young players, or maybe they are already capped by virtue of being deemed worthy of selection. In other words, we get get Gillmore because the coach wouldn’t accept Martavis Bryant and players similar to him.
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Re: Savage on scouting and drafting
Ideally, what you would want is for the coach to describe the type of role he needs filled, within his scheme and philosophy, and the General Manager finds that player. Before Harbaugh, that is what was happening. Also early in his tenure. However, as Bisciotti grew closer to Harbaugh and Harbaugh gained clout, the dynamic changed. It used to be that Ozzie was Emperor. He had his advisers and listened to what they all had to say. Ultimately, nonetheless, the decision came down to the Emperor. Now, I believe that Steve Bisciotti has been the root cause of the over-thinking, because he is the one who has enabled Harbaugh. To use a wrestling analogy, since there are a lot of wrestling fans on this board, there used to be a booker. Now, there's a booking committee.
"Please take with you this final sword, The Excellector. I am praying that your journey will be guided by the light", Leon Shore
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02-24-2018, 09:26 AM #17
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02-24-2018, 11:36 AM #19Veteran Poster
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Re: Savage on scouting and drafting
Wow, great pull on this article. I never heard this before. Now that explains why we took a guy in the 3rd round when most figured he would go undrafted or be a 6th or 7th rounder.
So now Gilmore who was a DE, switched to TE to appease Kubiak so he could draft him now is switching positions again?
This is why I have said for years Harbaugh and his crew has too much input on the draft. I love Kubiak and can give him credit for having eye for TE Talent, he has coached some good ones. But now he seems like a bust with the injuries and who knows if he gains 30 lbs and cant even play the position?
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02-24-2018, 04:01 PM #20Regular 1st Stringer
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Re: Savage on scouting and drafting
This exactly. You pretty much describe how I'd envision a successful relationship between the coaching staff and the GM. I assume that the moment the season ends, you all sit down, you decide that this sucked, this needs work, we need this and that and the meeting adjourns. At that point, the GM should have an idea what the coaches look for to fill those needs in a way that best fits their schemes. The coaching staff goes away and the next few months things are left in the hands of the GM and the scouts with as little background noise from the rest of the organization as possible. I think there has to be a certain amount of trust that when the DC says he prefers speedy LBs for his scheme, that the GM won't grab some lumbering tank. This seems to happen more than it ever should.
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02-24-2018, 05:17 PM #21
Re: Savage on scouting and drafting
This is a fine statement. Harbaugh has indeed been Bisciotti's weakness. The winds have changed though - in some measure - if you consider Bisciotti's recent indirect comments on the draft process and his HC, and Tony's more direct, yet restrained, comments on Ozzie and Eric a couple of months ago. The GM is regaining more clear control again, it appears, and I hope.
But, as to the scouts and the selection process, something does not make sense to me. Clearly our recent bad drafts were 2013 and 2015. But in those years the heralded Ravens' personnel people who flocked to Philly were still with the Ravens. Bisciotti recently commented that maybe we shouldn't be relying on such young scouts as we apparently now have. But Ozzie and Eric fielded the spectacular 2016 (with unprecedented intelligent mining) draft and still promising 2017 draft - on the strength of those young replacement scouts. Either those young scouts are a lot better than they are getting credit for, or Ozzie and Eric are doing a tremendous job by themselves."Flacco is driving the ball in that wind....."
(AFCCG, January 2013)
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02-24-2018, 05:45 PM #22Four-eyed Raven
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Re: Savage on scouting and drafting
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02-24-2018, 06:24 PM #23Regular 1st Stringer
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Re: Savage on scouting and drafting
I've wondered if its a chasm between knowing more and knowing different.
Presumably anyone with eyes can see if a player is fast, or if he has a good punch, or if he can bend at the knees. Do scouts know more because they've had the time to see bad bend 1,2,3 while coaches only have the time to see bad bend 1 and thus dismiss 2 and 3 as correctible with coaching? Thus scouts know more.
Or, do scouts know that the bad bend is because he was nursing a secret injury. A source on campus reveals the secret. Thus, scouts know different, know better.
If I were a scout I think I would be insulted if a coach claimed to have the better evaluation. After all, it's what I'm doing for a living, 60 hours per week. The part-time evaluator, the coach, should have the onus of convincing the GM that the scout is wrong. Burden of production, and burden of persuasion should be on the coach.
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02-24-2018, 07:41 PM #24Four-eyed Raven
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Re: Savage on scouting and drafting
Coaches are not exactly "part time". They're looking at film every week, both in-season and training camp. Maybe not COLLEGE players until the offseason; but they've been watching football film their whole professional lives.
I can easily understand that some would be better at it than others. But that they as a class tend to be bad at it - that's odd.
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