Ravens drafts pre and post harbaugh (also post super bowl)

[WrongBaldy]

my theory is that harbs has more input into drafts and personnel decision than we think (just a gut feeling). and this crappy offense of 3 yards and could of dust is more him than ozzie.
so i decided to see the ravens draft history and show some numbers. harbs has been here since 2008 so thats 10 years. i decided to exclude the 2008 draft bc since it was his first year.
so 9 years prior to harbs coming and 9 years after his first year here.
I only counted picks in rounds 1-3 since those are the rounds you expect to get starters + contributors, anything after round 3 is a lottery ticket.

Here are the numbers from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltim..._draft_history

first column is the year, then # of players drafted on O and then # of players drafted on D.

1999 - 0O/1D
2000 - 3O/0D
2001 - 2O/1D
2002 - 0O/2D
2003 - 2O/1D
2004 - 1O/1D
2005 - 2O/1D
2006 - 1O/2D
2007 - 3O/0D

2009 - 1O/2D
2010 - 1O/2D
2011 - 2O/1D
2012 - 2O/1D
*post super bowl- "harbs' team"
2013 - 0O/3D
2014 - 1O/3D
2015 - 2O/1D
2016 - 1O/2D
2017 - 0O/4D

some conclusions:
*in the 9 years prior to harbs coming ozzie selected 14 offensive players in the first 3 rounds and 9 defensive players.
*in the 4 years after harbs' first year ozzie selected 5 offensive players in the first 3 rounds and 5 defensive players.
*in the 5 years after the super bowl ozzie selected 4 offensive players in the first 3 rounds and 13 defensive players.
*in the 9 years after harbs' first year ozzie selected 9 offensive players in the first 3 rounds and 18 defensive players.
*seems like ozzie was not averse to drafting offensive players in the first 3 rounds prior to 2013.
*looks like the philosophy really changed after the super bowl. could it be that defensive players have gotten better in college than offensive players?
*i think harbs got more control after the super bowl win
*i dont think its fair to say ozzie has an outdated philosophy and/or he lost his magic. I am willing to give him another chance with another head coach.

[Ortizer]

my theory is that harbs has more input into drafts and personnel decision than we think (just a gut feeling). and this crappy offense of 3 yards and could of dust is more him than ozzie.
so i decided to see the ravens draft history and show some numbers. harbs has been here since 2008 so thats 10 years. i decided to exclude the 2008 draft bc since it was his first year.
so 9 years prior to harbs coming and 9 years after his first year here.
I only counted picks in rounds 1-3 since those are the rounds you expect to get starters + contributors, anything after round 3 is a lottery ticket.

Here are the numbers from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltim..._draft_history

first column is the year, then # of players drafted on O and then # of players drafted on D.

1999 - 0O/1D
2000 - 3O/0D
2001 - 2O/1D
2002 - 0O/2D
2003 - 2O/1D
2004 - 1O/1D
2005 - 2O/1D
2006 - 1O/2D
2007 - 3O/0D

2009 - 1O/2D
2010 - 1O/2D
2011 - 2O/1D
2012 - 2O/1D
*post super bowl- "harbs' team"
2013 - 0O/3D
2014 - 1O/3D
2015 - 2O/1D
2016 - 1O/2D
2017 - 0O/4D

some conclusions:
*in the 9 years prior to harbs coming ozzie selected 14 offensive players in the first 3 rounds and 9 defensive players.
*in the 4 years after harbs' first year ozzie selected 5 offensive players in the first 3 rounds and 5 defensive players.
*in the 5 years after the super bowl ozzie selected 4 offensive players in the first 3 rounds and 13 defensive players.
*in the 9 years after harbs' first year ozzie selected 9 offensive players in the first 3 rounds and 18 defensive players.
*seems like ozzie was not averse to drafting offensive players in the first 3 rounds prior to 2013.
*looks like the philosophy really changed after the super bowl. could it be that defensive players have gotten better in college than offensive players?
*i think harbs got more control after the super bowl win
*i dont think its fair to say ozzie has an outdated philosophy and/or he lost his magic. I am willing to give him another chance with another head coach.

May have something to do with the 2 hall of famers that left the team after the super bowl, one of which we are still trying to replace

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[The Excellector]

This is a very interesting theory. Whether you agree with it or not, the plausibility behind it cannot be denied.

[Coram_Nobis]

Thanks for taking the time to provide the facts.

A few observations.

What's the baseline? Meaning, how does the Ravens draft history compare to other teams during that same period?
What were the foregone options during each of those selections? Meaning, if a particular draft was heavy at position X, if position X was where the value was at, then why reach for position Y?

I'll put those generalities aside and turn specifically to the Ravens. If rounds 1-3 are anticipated to be starting-caliber players then I wouldn't expect many first-to-thrid round LBs and DBs when Ray Lewis, Terrell Suggs, Chris McAlister, and Ed Reed are already locked in as starters. However, when Ed Reed and Ray Lewis aren't on the team then I would expect selections like Matt Elam and Arthur Brown. Likewise, when you lose Dennis Pitta to hip injury in July of 2013 and Torrey Smith to free agency in early 2014 -- then it's not surprising that the Maxx Williams and Breshad Perriman are the first two selections in the 2014 draft. Likewise, when you know that Eugene Monroe's head is in the clouds then Ronnie Stanley isn't a surprising selection.

The problem, of course, is that four of the five draftees I mentioned are, or are proving themselves to be, busts. If Maxx Williams turned out to be Travis Kelce, if Arthur Brown turned out to be Jamie Collins, then later draft selections change.

I know many people aren't happy with how they used their early picks last April. But it seems that since the SuperBowl it doesn't matter which position they select early (save for DT -- where Jernigan and Williams have proven to be contributors) the team is busting. Elam, Brown, Brooks, Perriman, Williams, Correa, Kaufusi -- they haven't proven themselves starters and are/were barely contributors.

I tend to think that Harbaugh's influence increased after the SuperBowl. And I think it resulted in more "Yes, Sir/No, Sir" high motor, scrappy, players, often with chips on their shoulders from small schools. John Simon -- supposedly a coach's darling. Kyle Juszczyk -- Harvard. Talliaferro -- Coastal Carolina. Aaron Mellette - Elon. Tray Walker - Texas Southern. The theme is developmental, Avis "We Try Harder," players, players who are grateful to be in the NFL. That's not to say that the team didn't select from national powerhouses. But even players like Mosley and Stanley seem to lack an edge.

Wrapping up, I suspect Harbaugh to be problem. Just as his coordinators seem to be guys on their last NFL stop who don't have head coaching prospects (and the edge that such a thing requires) the players he develops seem to be cut from a similar cloth: Professional, hardworking, team oriented -- but missing that certain something. As I've written elsewhere, it feels like Harbaugh is the owner of the locker room and the weekly result...but it should be the players who have ownership. Until players are brought in who have the talent and will to wrest it away from Harbaugh, I fear more of the same: dull, workmanlike, and mediocre.

[usmccharles]

I tend to think that Harbaugh's influence increased after the SuperBowl. And I think it resulted in more "Yes, Sir/No, Sir" high motor, scrappy, players, often with chips on their shoulders from small schools. John Simon -- supposedly a coach's darling. Kyle Juszczyk -- Harvard. Talliaferro -- Coastal Carolina. Aaron Mellette - Elon. Tray Walker - Texas Southern. The theme is developmental, Avis "We Try Harder," players, players who are grateful to be in the NFL. That's not to say that the team didn't select from national powerhouses. But even players like Mosley and Stanley seem to lack an edge.

.

Good post, basically agree with everything except: I liked Juice. I think he added a nice dynamic, I get that there was no way we are paying him that kind of money, but I was sad to see him go. Everything else, spot on imo. I would like to know the draft room protocol

[steelerhater]

my theory is that harbs has more input into drafts and personnel decision than we think (just a gut feeling). and this crappy offense of 3 yards and could of dust is more him than ozzie.
so i decided to see the ravens draft history and show some numbers. harbs has been here since 2008 so thats 10 years. i decided to exclude the 2008 draft bc since it was his first year.
so 9 years prior to harbs coming and 9 years after his first year here.
I only counted picks in rounds 1-3 since those are the rounds you expect to get starters + contributors, anything after round 3 is a lottery ticket.

Here are the numbers from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltim..._draft_history

first column is the year, then # of players drafted on O and then # of players drafted on D.

1999 - 0O/1D
2000 - 3O/0D
2001 - 2O/1D
2002 - 0O/2D
2003 - 2O/1D
2004 - 1O/1D
2005 - 2O/1D
2006 - 1O/2D
2007 - 3O/0D

2009 - 1O/2D
2010 - 1O/2D
2011 - 2O/1D
2012 - 2O/1D
*post super bowl- "harbs' team"
2013 - 0O/3D
2014 - 1O/3D
2015 - 2O/1D
2016 - 1O/2D
2017 - 0O/4D

some conclusions:
*in the 9 years prior to harbs coming ozzie selected 14 offensive players in the first 3 rounds and 9 defensive players.
*in the 4 years after harbs' first year ozzie selected 5 offensive players in the first 3 rounds and 5 defensive players.
*in the 5 years after the super bowl ozzie selected 4 offensive players in the first 3 rounds and 13 defensive players.
*in the 9 years after harbs' first year ozzie selected 9 offensive players in the first 3 rounds and 18 defensive players.
*seems like ozzie was not averse to drafting offensive players in the first 3 rounds prior to 2013.
*looks like the philosophy really changed after the super bowl. could it be that defensive players have gotten better in college than offensive players?
*i think harbs got more control after the super bowl win
*i dont think its fair to say ozzie has an outdated philosophy and/or he lost his magic. I am willing to give him another chance with another head coach.

Of the 4 offensive players drafted in the first 3 rounds over the last 5 years, 2 are busts (Perriman, and Williams), and one isn't much of a contributor (Gilmore). Only Stanley is a decent pick in 5 years of drafting (1st 3 rounds).

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[Corey]

This is a very interesting theory. Whether you agree with it or not, the plausibility behind it cannot be denied.

Agreed. I also think it is weird how Ozzie went from being able to find defensive pro bowlerss at the snap of a finger to not being able to find any all. He didn't just lose his knowledge of defense.

I still want him gone, he may be more willing to draft offense than Harbs but it does us no good when they suck. Which they do.... overwhelming.

[Jsmoove]

Good thread... how involved is Harbs in the process?


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[Mmcclend]

Good thread... how involved is Harbs in the process?


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It's becoming clear his fingerprints are everywhere in this team. He's soft-we are soft.


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[srobert96]

There has been mention of tension between the scouting department and coaching staff. I think even more on the defensive side of the ball where the scouting department doesn't feel like they are using the players correctly. Could be why we are burning through defensive picks.

[Jsmoove]

It's becoming clear his fingerprints are everywhere in this team. He's soft-we are soft.


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I don’t want to speculate because the buck ultimately stops with Ozzie he signs off on these personnel moves BUT it’s not far fetched to think John has his hands all over the process maybe more so in previous years. It does ask a serious question because is Ozzie seriously falling off or is he just going with the flow to what John wants?


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[Jsmoove]

There has been mention of tension between the scouting department and coaching staff. I think even more on the defensive side of the ball where the scouting department doesn't feel like they are using the players correctly. Could be why we are burning through defensive picks.

We’ve heard these little things for a while now.


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