Is this too much?

**GreatWhiteNorthRaven** · 08-09-2017, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

You're unhappy with yourself for being yourself.

I think that's certainly a factor. I think transgender people will always have to deal with mental health issues. However, I think a larger factor is the fear of nonacceptance, judgement, etc.

That fear causes a lot of mental duress when making a decision to make the change (something that is currently being studied - deaths by suicide for those with sex change ideation - very hard to study though as it's all self-reported data). Once the change is made you may feel better about yourself until the stigma of being transgender takes over. That then causes further hardship.

**JAB1985** · 08-09-2017, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

You're unhappy with yourself for being yourself.

i think thats a societal issue. you put a person in a vacuum, they dont just start not liking themselves without pressure from outside sources, whatever they may be.

**NCRAVEN** · 08-09-2017, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteNorthRaven

I think that's certainly a factor. I think transgender people will always have to deal with mental health issues. However, I think a larger factor is the fear of nonacceptance, judgement, etc.

That fear causes a lot of mental duress when making a decision to make the change (something that is currently being studied - deaths by suicide for those with sex change ideation - very hard to study though as it's all self-reported data). Once the change is made you may feel better about yourself until the stigma of being transgender takes over. That then causes further hardship.

I disagree 100%. If someone is going to go to the level to take drugs and have surgery to take and add parts to themselves because they're unhappy, there is no way I'm going to believe the larger issue is how others will feel about them.

If that was the case, I think they'd just accept they are uncomfortable with their body and put their happiness on people accepting that or not.

**NCRAVEN** · 08-09-2017, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by JAB1985

i think thats a societal issue. you put a person in a vacuum, they dont just start not liking themselves without pressure from outside sources, whatever they may be.

In some cases, maybe. But across the board, no. I don't buy for one second that everyone who has or commits suicide does it because of society. They do it because they are unhappy or what have you.

**wickedsolo** · 08-09-2017, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by JAB1985

i think thats a societal issue. you put a person in a vacuum, they dont just start not liking themselves without pressure from outside sources, whatever they may be.

That would be an interesting debate. I would argue the opposite.

People sometimes have natural inclinations towards depression. Something doesn't go their way, something bad happens, etc. it's hard to bounce back from bad things, but people that have legitimate depression or anxiety can make things way way worse.

If a person with mental health problems existed in a vacuum, they'd likely be equally as depressed as they would be in society simply because that's their nature.

I also don't t like the constant blaming of "society" for everything shitty that happens to someone.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**wickedsolo** · 08-09-2017, 04:17 PM

So, here is a question, let's move the dial from gender dysphoria to straight up body dysphoria.

There are people out there that try to have elective surgeries to remove their hands, arms, legs, feet, ears, etc. they simply don't like those parts of their body and want them removed. They claim heightened levels of depression and anxiety because they have two hands or two arms.

Would you all consider those types of folks to have some sort of mental health issue going on? I would - and I strongly doubt lopping off an arm is going to magically make that person feel better.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**usmccharles** · 08-09-2017, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

So, here is a question, let's move the dial from gender dysphoria to straight up body dysphoria.

There are people out there that try to have elective surgeries to remove their hands, arms, legs, feet, ears, etc. they simply don't like those parts of their body and want them removed. They claim heightened levels of depression and anxiety because they have two hands or two arms.

Would you all consider those types of folks to have some sort of mental health issue going on? I would - and I strongly doubt lopping off an arm is going to magically make that person feel better.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Im headed out to work and ill respond a little better, but for a quick response: Maybe that person has tried to change so much physical attributes about themselves to feel better about who they are in their own persona but everything else has failed. Now, imo, i think this is a drastic mental problem because i dont think any sane or logical person would view chopping off a limb as a way to improve one's self acceptance. There can be many health issues derived from this, but here we are again with peoples rights to do whatever they want with their own body. To go even further we could start discussing Dr. Kevorkian.

**JAB1985** · 08-10-2017, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

That would be an interesting debate. I would argue the opposite.

People sometimes have natural inclinations towards depression. Something doesn't go their way, something bad happens, etc. it's hard to bounce back from bad things, but people that have legitimate depression or anxiety can make things way way worse.

If a person with mental health problems existed in a vacuum, they'd likely be equally as depressed as they would be in society simply because that's their nature.

I also don't t like the constant blaming of "society" for everything shitty that happens to someone.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think thats a fair point. clinical depression is clinical depression and would happen in a vaccuum regardless. Thats not what i was referring to, since thats a chemical inbalance. Some gay/trans most definitely have other mental illnesses to attribute to that, just like any other group of people. The problem is theyre at a disproportionate number of suicides. Theres really two beliefs, either that gay/trans just happen to include a high number of clinically depressed/mentally ill or that societal pressures are attributing to that. when im talking about being in a vacuum im referring to otherwise healthy/happy people that happen to be gay/trans. Those people wouldnt get down, like clinical depression would, without that. I think to group them after the fact as all the same is oversight of the root cause. obviously im a believer in the latter of the two.

**NCRAVEN** · 08-10-2017, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by JAB1985

I think thats a fair point. clinical depression is clinical depression and would happen in a vaccuum regardless. Thats not what i was referring to, since thats a chemical inbalance. Some gay/trans most definitely have other mental illnesses to attribute to that, just like any other group of people. The problem is theyre at a disproportionate number of suicides. Theres really two beliefs, either that gay/trans just happen to include a high number of clinically depressed/mentally ill or that societal pressures are attributing to that. when im talking about being in a vacuum im referring to otherwise healthy/happy people that happen to be gay/trans. Those people wouldnt get down, like clinical depression would, without that. I think to group them after the fact as all the same is oversight of the root cause. obviously im a believer in the latter of the two.

I don't think that is settled science. A majority consensus maybe, but definitely not settled science.

**usmccharles** · 08-11-2017, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by Chuck Williams

Yes, I do not accept them, and I am proud of that.

Sounds like you are just an old bigot, but hey, you do you. Are you racist against (insert not your races)?

**Baltravens** · 08-12-2017, 01:40 PM

Well, let me tell you a fact. Scientists have been mapping genes for over 40 years to determine if there is a link or cause and effect why one becomes homosexual. THEY HAVE FOUND NOTHING. Science has shown no one has been born homosexual.

Thus, one becomes homosexual by the environment he/she is in.

I have a cousin who is gay. He was reared by a patsy father who was not firm. Thus no firm and Christian parenting. The father was not gainfully employed. No wonder the result is a man who has homosexual behavior and is married to a man. And, it is unknown if as a boy he was ever sexually abused or harmed. Psychological scares can result from abuse/harm as a child.

**darb72** · 08-13-2017, 03:10 AM

Originally Posted by Baltravens

Well, let me tell you a fact. Scientists have been mapping genes for over 40 years to determine if there is a link or cause and effect why one becomes homosexual. THEY HAVE FOUND NOTHING. Science has shown no one has been born homosexual.

Thus, one becomes homosexual by the environment he/she is in.

I have a cousin who is gay. He was reared by a patsy father who was not firm. Thus no firm and Christian parenting. The father was not gainfully employed. No wonder the result is a man who has homosexual behavior and is married to a man. And, it is unknown if as a boy he was ever sexually abused or harmed. Psychological scares can result from abuse/harm as a child.

Incorrect. Studies have found that girls born to women who use a certain fertility drug become lesbians at a 34% rate, compared to the 5% rate that occurs naturally. Being the youngest son in a large family leads to higher rates of homosexuality as well.

This isn't to say that homosexuality is either nature or nurture, but a bit of both.