The Foundation of Development.

**leachisabeast** · 05-17-2017, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Goode05

I'm not a fan of Harbaugh by any stretch but I just don't think Biscotti will fire him outside a complete collapse. It seems Biscotti isn't that upset with being average.

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Steve Biscotti fired Brian Billick one year removed from a 13-3 season. I think saying that he is happy with mediocrity is totally off base. We've had two average seasons and one bad season with Harbs, the rest has either been good or great (SB). Look at what the Giants did with Coughlin. It paid off.

**bt12483** · 05-17-2017, 07:53 AM

If the offense fails to have an identity this year Harbaugh deserves to be fired.

Within 4 games we should all know what the foundational principles of this offense are.

We should not be guessing as to what kind of an offense we have in week 8.

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**Goode05** · 05-17-2017, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Steve Biscotti fired Brian Billick one year removed from a 13-3 season. I think saying that he is happy with mediocrity is totally off base. We've had two average seasons and one bad season with Harbs, the rest has either been good or great (SB). Look at what the Giants did with Coughlin. It paid off.

Nothing this team has done this offseason points to someone trying to win now. Smoove is right I don't think any of them are going anywhere. Since the super bowl it's been a mediocre team at best and I don't see it changing. The excuses are already there. The defense is really young they just need another year. The players on offense just didn't quite step up like we thought. We will build the offense this year etc

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**The Excellector** · 05-17-2017, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Kubiak was an Oz/Steve decision. Harbs wanted Hostler and wanted to stick to the power ACO.

Honestly Cam Cameron was a decent OC for Joe for a number of years, and the power ACO was just a good fit for him as the zone run WCO was. 2010 was Joe's best statistical year as a QB under Cams offense. So I can't really blame Harbs for that, I think to this day that the ACO is the best scheme for Joe and particularly with the offense we have now. I have no idea what type of WCO Marty is going to install.

What I do blame John for is his over loyalty to OCs. Cam ran his course as an OC, and should have been fired after the 2011 season. Trestman should never have been hired, and then fired after the 2015 season. Marty should have been fired after this season. And the big one: Pees should have been fired after the 2014 season for that defensive debacle in NE in a game we easily should have won. Pees robbed SSR of a SB ring.

Can't argue with Harbs success as a HC. You mentioned Marvin Lewis, but fact is he hasn't really done much in his career apart from create pretty talented teams that have failed to achieve anything. At least Harbs has been a very successful HC. But he NEEDS to do something this year and come out of his comfort zone because Steve Biscotti is not Mike Brown and will fire Harbs if mediocrity continues, which would mainly be down to insisting on keeping coordinators like Dean Pees. Pees has literally zero excuses this year.

*Sighs*............again, I was NOT talking about EVERYTHING MARVIN LEWIS DID. I was talking SPECIFICALLY about one the few things he has done right which was IDENTIFY A SYSTEM, BUILD A PIPELINE OF COACHES UP IN THE SYSTEM TO STEP UP AND TEACH IT WHEN COORDINATORS LEFT AND STICK TO SAID SYSTEM. That is ALL I am talking about with Marvin Lewis.

And again, I do not give Harbaugh a pass, because

A.) He didn't stick to the ACO
B.) 2010 was also under QB Coach Jim Zorn, who was a WCO guy and whom Harbaugh also FIRED
C.) He didn't develop the pipeline.

All of these things, combined with what I mentioned in discussion with Wicked, SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE FROM DAY ONE BECAUSE EVERYONE KNEW THEY WOULD TARGET A QB. It wasn't, because Harbaugh was more concerned with running the ball than developing his QB. Naturally, you are going to run the ball early on in his career, but the transition never properly took place, because the system wasn't identified, the pipeline wasn't built, and the system wasn't stuck to. Even after Kubiak showed up, yet again, a pipeline wasn't built.

I was just using an example of how Marvin Lewis built true 'offensive' continuity as an example of the way it should have been done here and the offense would be better off for it. Without that foundation, player development, in my opinion, suffered. Before we even get into what they mismanaged offensively over the years, they didn't even have a foundation to begin with.

**The Excellector** · 05-17-2017, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Marty should have been fired because I think we needed either an ACO OC or a zone run WCO OC.

Marty Mornhinweg has traditionally been a Zone Run WCO OC.

**sawraven1** · 05-17-2017, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Steve Biscotti fired Brian Billick one year removed from a 13-3 season. I think saying that he is happy with mediocrity is totally off base. We've had two average seasons and one bad season with Harbs, the rest has either been good or great (SB). Look at what the Giants did with Coughlin. It paid off.

You sound as if Billick was a scrub compared to Harbaugh.

You do realize Billick only had 3 losing seasons all while going through a salary cap purge that Harbaugh has never had to face. Harbaugh has 2 8-8 seasons and 1 losing season. Keep in mind Billick only had 1 good year of QB play his entire tenure.

Steve B fired Billick because Billick was a kiss ass type of coach. He knew how to run an offense, he acknowledged this teams strengths which was defense and they won with that.

This defense has been in decline since Rex, and Paganos short tenure. Greg Mattison and dean Pees have been horrible schemes. Mattison by far the worst.

John Harbaugh still has his job because the owner likes him. Harbaugh was his first choice as a head coach. Steve B wants him to succeed. Billick was never his guy.

**BcRaven** · 05-17-2017, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by bt12483

If the offense fails to have an identity this year Harbaugh deserves to be fired.

Within 4 games we should all know what the foundational principles of this offense are.

We should not be guessing as to what kind of an offense we have in week 8.

I don't see how the Ravens 2017 offense can have an "identity" when we don't even know all the offensive players who will be on the roster yet (?) As of now, we don't have a starting Center or RT, and our best RB (Dixon) is on four week suspension. With a questionable Oline, and an average (at best) WR/TE corps, the passing game is suspect too. It's not that I want to be pessimistic, but am reading what's before my eyes and I'm not too happy about it at present... Bc

**HbgPARavenfan** · 05-17-2017, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by BcRaven

I don't see how the Ravens 2017 offense can have an "identity" when we don't even know all the offensive players who will be on the roster yet (?) As of now, we don't have a starting Center or RT, and our best RB (Dixon) is on four week suspension. With a questionable Oline, and an average (at best) WR/TE corps, the passing game is suspect too. It's not that I want to be pessimistic, but am reading what's before my eyes and I'm not too happy about it at present... Bc

The only option they have is to be a power run team with playaction for burst yardage. They have huge holes on the offensive line to do this, and MM normally runs a west coast offense. We also lack a fullback for power running game, so we will need to run out of 2 TE sets.

Our "playmakers" scream play action deep pass, but our coordinators dont fit that scheme.

So are we going to adapt, or are we going to continue to try to force Wallace and Perriman into running short routes like slants, hitches, etc...knowing they are weak in actual route running.

**Shutdown#21** · 05-17-2017, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by The Excellector

*Sighs*............again, I was NOT talking about EVERYTHING MARVIN LEWIS DID. I was talking SPECIFICALLY about one the few things he has done right which was IDENTIFY A SYSTEM, BUILD A PIPELINE OF COACHES UP IN THE SYSTEM TO STEP UP AND TEACH IT WHEN COORDINATORS LEFT AND STICK TO SAID SYSTEM. That is ALL I am talking about with Marvin Lewis.

And again, I do not give Harbaugh a pass, because

A.) He didn't stick to the ACO
B.) 2010 was also under QB Coach Jim Zorn, who was a WCO guy and whom Harbaugh also FIRED
C.) He didn't develop the pipeline.

All of these things, combined with what I mentioned in discussion with Wicked, SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE FROM DAY ONE BECAUSE EVERYONE KNEW THEY WOULD TARGET A QB. It wasn't, because Harbaugh was more concerned with running the ball than developing his QB. Naturally, you are going to run the ball early on in his career, but the transition never properly took place, because the system wasn't identified, the pipeline wasn't built, and the system wasn't stuck to. Even after Kubiak showed up, yet again, a pipeline wasn't built.

I was just using an example of how Marvin Lewis built true 'offensive' continuity as an example of the way it should have been done here and the offense would be better off for it. Without that foundation, player development, in my opinion, suffered. Before we even get into what they mismanaged offensively over the years, they didn't even have a foundation to begin with.

Ex is repeating himself over and over again.

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**Ravenswintitle** · 05-17-2017, 07:25 PM

**bt12483** · 05-17-2017, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by bt12483

If the offense fails to have an identity this year Harbaugh deserves to be fired.

Within 4 games we should all know what the foundational principles of this offense are.

We should not be guessing as to what kind of an offense we have in week 8.

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LOL

"Senior Offensive Assistant/Tight Ends Coach Greg Roman talked about the need for an offense to have an identity, and for opposing defenses to respect that facet of its attack."

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/video...e-ea8da5fc495d

Its almost like they read this website...

**ravens1991** · 05-17-2017, 09:10 PM

The thing is w/ Roman he actually can bring an Identity that Ozzie and Harbaugh love and has proven to do it at two different franchises. I am pretty shocked he just isn't our OC, he does have a pretty impressive resume. Trying this co-offensive coordinator crap will be about as good as we all predicted it will be we decided to randomly take power away from an OC fresh of off him creating a offense for the ages in just three weeks of being a coordinator.

Also why even make Roman a TE coach. If he is really going to be our run game coordinator let him coordinator the run game. Not have him half heartedly tech the TE because he really needs to focus on our run game.