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  1. #37
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    Re: The Foundation of Development.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    I'm not talking about whose offense it is. My point is that, whoever's offense it was, Marvin Lewis identified it as an offense that was great fit for Andy Dalton, before preceding to make sure all of his assistants learned it in and out to run it once they lost Coordinators. That 2011 off-season, they identified a QB and a system. In come Gruden and Dalton. Then, Lewis developed a pipeline of coaches based off of that system.
    It's a bit presumptuous to think that Marvin Lewis made all of his coaches learn Jay Gruden's system. For example, the current OC there, Ken Zampese, was there before Jay Gruden was hired as the OC in 2011.

    I'm not saying you're wrong - I'm just saying that we have no idea that's what occurred.

    I'd also remind you that Harbaugh basically tried to do the same thing. I wrote an article for Tony about this last year, but basically, I believe the following:

    • Harbaugh was hesitant about hiring Gary Kubiak and switching systems from the Coryell to the Zone-Run WCO.
    • Kubiak came in and completely revamped the offense and Kubiak really only brought Rick Dennison and Ben Pariani with him.
    • Kubiak helped fill out the rest of the offensive staff with Bobby Engram and Tom Hammock.
    • Flacco and Kubiak clicked and Kubiak's offense clicked with Flacco's skill set.
    • Harbaugh saw an offense that met his overarching philosophy of effective runs to keep the clock moving and play-action passes that beat defenses underneath and over the top.
    • Kubiak gets hired by Denver, but Harbaugh is convinced this is the offense for them.
    • Harbaugh declares that whoever the next OC is going to be is going to run the "Ravens" playbook, which is basically Kubiak's playbook.
    • They missed out on Kyle Shanahan.
    • Everyone they interviewed for the vacancy was asked whether or not they felt comfortable running someone else's playbook.
    • Trestman said yes and that he was familiar with that playbook.
    • Harbaugh was satisfied with that and with Trestman's experience working with QB's.
    • They then hired Marty as the QB's coach.
    • Then they drafted for guys that would fit Kubiak's offense (Perriman, Maxx, Buck Allen, Boyle, and Waller).


    Ex - that was Harbaugh's fatal flaw. Obviously, he couldn't have predicted the injury bug would be so bad in 2015, but asking Trestman to come in and run an offense that is almost entirely opposite of Trestman's philosophy and then DRAFTING players that don't fit what Trestman likes to do...it was just a damn shit show of epic proportions and they're still reeling from it.

    Harbaugh is the biggest reason why the Ravens have been "meh" the past couple of seasons since Kubiak left. I think he knows it too.
    Disclaimer: The content posted is of my own opinion.

    RIP #25





  2. #38

    Re: The Foundation of Development.

    How do you guys think Greg Roman will effect our current foundation? Marty and Castillo had experience together but now it looks like Roman will be adding a different mix into the running game. These super star coaching staffs we have made in the past haven't exactly worked.





  3. #39

    Re: The Foundation of Development.

    what's is Harbaugh going to do with Greg Roman. Is Roman the run coordinator for a Marty's offense or is Marty going to implement Roman's run philosophy. We have been down this path before and as pointed out it doesn't work.





  4. #40
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    Re: The Foundation of Development.

    Quote Originally Posted by beavery View Post
    what's is Harbaugh going to do with Greg Roman. Is Roman the run coordinator for a Marty's offense or is Marty going to implement Roman's run philosophy. We have been down this path before and as pointed out it doesn't work.
    Which way to go? Ask the Roman god, Janus :



    ... Bc





  5. #41
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    Re: The Foundation of Development.

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    It's a bit presumptuous to think that Marvin Lewis made all of his coaches learn Jay Gruden's system. For example, the current OC there, Ken Zampese, was there before Jay Gruden was hired as the OC in 2011.

    I'm not saying you're wrong - I'm just saying that we have no idea that's what occurred.

    I'd also remind you that Harbaugh basically tried to do the same thing. I wrote an article for Tony about this last year, but basically, I believe the following:

    • Harbaugh was hesitant about hiring Gary Kubiak and switching systems from the Coryell to the Zone-Run WCO.
    • Kubiak came in and completely revamped the offense and Kubiak really only brought Rick Dennison and Ben Pariani with him.
    • Kubiak helped fill out the rest of the offensive staff with Bobby Engram and Tom Hammock.
    • Flacco and Kubiak clicked and Kubiak's offense clicked with Flacco's skill set.
    • Harbaugh saw an offense that met his overarching philosophy of effective runs to keep the clock moving and play-action passes that beat defenses underneath and over the top.
    • Kubiak gets hired by Denver, but Harbaugh is convinced this is the offense for them.
    • Harbaugh declares that whoever the next OC is going to be is going to run the "Ravens" playbook, which is basically Kubiak's playbook.
    • They missed out on Kyle Shanahan.
    • Everyone they interviewed for the vacancy was asked whether or not they felt comfortable running someone else's playbook.
    • Trestman said yes and that he was familiar with that playbook.
    • Harbaugh was satisfied with that and with Trestman's experience working with QB's.
    • They then hired Marty as the QB's coach.
    • Then they drafted for guys that would fit Kubiak's offense (Perriman, Maxx, Buck Allen, Boyle, and Waller).


    Ex - that was Harbaugh's fatal flaw. Obviously, he couldn't have predicted the injury bug would be so bad in 2015, but asking Trestman to come in and run an offense that is almost entirely opposite of Trestman's philosophy and then DRAFTING players that don't fit what Trestman likes to do...it was just a damn shit show of epic proportions and they're still reeling from it.

    Harbaugh is the biggest reason why the Ravens have been "meh" the past couple of seasons since Kubiak left. I think he knows it too.
    I don't let Harbaugh off the hook for that for several reasons.

    1.) That system should have been identified years before 2014
    2.) Harbaugh didn't develop the pipeline in-house, in the case of an OC leaving. Which Lewis has done. They are still running Gruden's stuff. They've just tweaked the philosophy based on where the talent was focused.

    Lewis brought in Gruden, knowing that they would address the QB position. He then identified Dalton.

    What Harbaugh did was wait 7 years after Flacco was drafted to be told by others to look into bringing in Kubiak, because he might be interested, after Shanahan and Hostler of all people were finalists for the spot. Now, it could be said that Hostler was just a case of good gesture, but even if he'd brought in Shanahan, even more so than Kubiak, Shanahan was likely to leave. He didn't have the contingency plan. That's what I'm talking about. Lewis knew that if the offense performed well that he would lose Coordinators, much like the defense. It took a few years, but it eventually happened. Lewis was prepared. They are still running the same schemes on both sides of the ball to this day.

    Harbaugh almost lucked into that system by seeing it in action and THEN finally saying, 'Hey, this is what I envisioned'. Yet, it took him seven years to do it, which, in my opinion, is inexcusable. Furthermore, if that is the system he wanted to run, then not only did he not develop the pipeline, but he also brought in the wrong QB coach, because Marty is from a different discipline of the WCO. Very different.
    "Please take with you this final sword, The Excellector. I am praying that your journey will be guided by the light", Leon Shore





  6. #42
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    Re: The Foundation of Development.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    I don't let Harbaugh off the hook for that for several reasons.

    1.) That system should have been identified years before 2014
    2.) Harbaugh didn't develop the pipeline in-house, in the case of an OC leaving. Which Lewis has done. They are still running Gruden's stuff. They've just tweaked the philosophy based on where the talent was focused.

    Lewis brought in Gruden, knowing that they would address the QB position. He then identified Dalton.

    What Harbaugh did was wait 7 years after Flacco was drafted to be told by others to look into bringing in Kubiak, because he might be interested, after Shanahan and Hostler of all people were finalists for the spot. Now, it could be said that Hostler was just a case of good gesture, but even if he'd brought in Shanahan, even more so than Kubiak, Shanahan was likely to leave. He didn't have the contingency plan. That's what I'm talking about. Lewis knew that if the offense performed well that he would lose Coordinators, much like the defense. It took a few years, but it eventually happened. Lewis was prepared. They are still running the same schemes on both sides of the ball to this day.

    Harbaugh almost lucked into that system by seeing it in action and THEN finally saying, 'Hey, this is what I envisioned'. Yet, it took him seven years to do it, which, in my opinion, is inexcusable. Furthermore, if that is the system he wanted to run, then not only did he not develop the pipeline, but he also brought in the wrong QB coach, because Marty is from a different discipline of the WCO. Very different.
    Kubiak was an Oz/Steve decision. Harbs wanted Hostler and wanted to stick to the power ACO.

    Honestly Cam Cameron was a decent OC for Joe for a number of years, and the power ACO was just a good fit for him as the zone run WCO was. 2010 was Joe's best statistical year as a QB under Cams offense. So I can't really blame Harbs for that, I think to this day that the ACO is the best scheme for Joe and particularly with the offense we have now. I have no idea what type of WCO Marty is going to install.

    What I do blame John for is his over loyalty to OCs. Cam ran his course as an OC, and should have been fired after the 2011 season. Trestman should never have been hired, and then fired after the 2015 season. Marty should have been fired after this season. And the big one: Pees should have been fired after the 2014 season for that defensive debacle in NE in a game we easily should have won. Pees robbed SSR of a SB ring.

    Can't argue with Harbs success as a HC. You mentioned Marvin Lewis, but fact is he hasn't really done much in his career apart from create pretty talented teams that have failed to achieve anything. At least Harbs has been a very successful HC. But he NEEDS to do something this year and come out of his comfort zone because Steve Biscotti is not Mike Brown and will fire Harbs if mediocrity continues, which would mainly be down to insisting on keeping coordinators like Dean Pees. Pees has literally zero excuses this year.





  7. #43
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    Re: The Foundation of Development.

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    Kubiak was an Oz/Steve decision. Harbs wanted Hostler and wanted to stick to the power ACO.

    Honestly Cam Cameron was a decent OC for Joe for a number of years, and the power ACO was just a good fit for him as the zone run WCO was. 2010 was Joe's best statistical year as a QB under Cams offense. So I can't really blame Harbs for that, I think to this day that the ACO is the best scheme for Joe and particularly with the offense we have now. I have no idea what type of WCO Marty is going to install.

    What I do blame John for is his over loyalty to OCs. Cam ran his course as an OC, and should have been fired after the 2011 season. Trestman should never have been hired, and then fired after the 2015 season. Marty should have been fired after this season. And the big one: Pees should have been fired after the 2014 season for that defensive debacle in NE in a game we easily should have won. Pees robbed SSR of a SB ring.

    Can't argue with Harbs success as a HC. You mentioned Marvin Lewis, but fact is he hasn't really done much in his career apart from create pretty talented teams that have failed to achieve anything. At least Harbs has been a very successful HC. But he NEEDS to do something this year and come out of his comfort zone because Steve Biscotti is not Mike Brown and will fire Harbs if mediocrity continues, which would mainly be down to insisting on keeping coordinators like Dean Pees. Pees has literally zero excuses this year.
    I don't know how you can say MM should have been fired after last year. He was hired mid season and the team flat out could not run the ball. It's not that they didn't want to run the ball. The team flat out could not do it. Most successful runs came out of the shotgun and were draws. When they lined up in normal sets and tried to run the backs had to either break a tackle or two to get to the line (go Te watch the last Pittsburgh game) or their was a holding call turning everything into 1st and 20. I also disagree about Biscotti firing Harbaugh I don't see it. It's already been 3/4 years with a losing or 500 record. Harbaugh should have been fired after the way the Trestman thing turned out. I don't see him going anywhere anytime soon. If the defense is top 5 that will be his excuse that next year they just need more talent on offense......


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  8. #44
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    Re: The Foundation of Development.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goode05 View Post
    I don't know how you can say MM should have been fired after last year. He was hired mid season and the team flat out could not run the ball. It's not that they didn't want to run the ball. The team flat out could not do it. Most successful runs came out of the shotgun and were draws. When they lined up in normal sets and tried to run the backs had to either break a tackle or two to get to the line (go Te watch the last Pittsburgh game) or their was a holding call turning everything into 1st and 20. I also disagree about Biscotti firing Harbaugh I don't see it. It's already been 3/4 years with a losing or 500 record. Harbaugh should have been fired after the way the Trestman thing turned out. I don't see him going anywhere anytime soon. If the defense is top 5 that will be his excuse that next year they just need more talent on offense......


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    Marty should have been fired because I think we needed either an ACO OC or a zone run WCO OC. I don't see any offense under Marty on his history as a coordinator that is a good fit for Joe.

    And we will see on Harbs. I think if Harbs fails to make the play offs again
    , There will at least be changed to the staff. I still think he gets fired if we miss the play offs.





  9. #45
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    Re: The Foundation of Development.

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    Marty should have been fired because I think we needed either an ACO OC or a zone run WCO OC. I don't see any offense under Marty on his history as a coordinator that is a good fit for Joe.

    And we will see on Harbs. I think if Harbs fails to make the play offs again
    , There will at least be changed to the staff. I still think he gets fired if we miss the play offs.
    With the lineman in place now it doesn't really make sense to go back to a zone run blocking scheme. Plus outside the year with qubes the zone blocking scheme has failed here


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  10. #46
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    Re: The Foundation of Development.

    I'm not a fan of Harbaugh by any stretch but I just don't think Biscotti will fire him outside a complete collapse. It seems Biscotti isn't that upset with being average.


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  11. #47
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    Re: The Foundation of Development.

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    Marty should have been fired because I think we needed either an ACO OC or a zone run WCO OC. I don't see any offense under Marty on his history as a coordinator that is a good fit for Joe.

    And we will see on Harbs. I think if Harbs fails to make the play offs again
    , There will at least be changed to the staff. I still think he gets fired if we miss the play offs.
    The fact that the Ravens, post kubiak, cant seem to recognize what scheme works best for the players they employ is shocking to me.

    And inexcusable.

    It supports the theory that Harbaugh is out of his league on offense and can't cut it without a domineering OC to control things.

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  12. #48
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    Re: The Foundation of Development.

    Who is the alpha dog on the offensive coaching staff that will set Harbaugh straight with respect to the direction that this team needs?

    Not the good ol boy Marty, who gee golly whiz just seems happy to have a job.

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