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  1. #25
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity



    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    No.
    Well, I'll take that to include you too ;)
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin





  2. #26
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Well, I'll take that to include you too ;)
    Again, it's not about right or wrong.

    You can't be right or wrong when you have no possible way to know the truth.





  3. #27

    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    My favorite quote from Rudy.

    "There is a God. I'm not him."

    All the research I've done, and studying the evidence presented by scientists, lead my to believe that God is real. Christ was born to Mary to wash away our sins. We have some bickering in the ranks, Catholic vs. Protestant, etc... but at the end of the day Christ is the only way to eternal life.
    "A moron, a rapist, and a Pittsburgh Steeler walk into a bar. He sits down and says, Hi Im Ben may I have a drink please?
    ProFootballMock





  4. #28
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Again, it's not about right or wrong.

    You can't be right or wrong when you have no possible way to know the truth.
    Correct, and that includes believing no one can be right. I believe that Jesus was who he said he was and what he said is true as a result. You believe that no one can be right, we're both acting on faith. I'm not being snarky or playing "gotcha", I'm being serious.

    I do have a question. You believe there is a God (as you said earlier), do you believe that God created the universe and everything in it?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin





  5. #29
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I actually went to a youth group when I was in high school and I brought this very topic up. The youth leader goes "ok, well for Paul, we'll say that our god is the 'Big G' and all of the others are 'little G's'..."

    I never went back.

    That's not faith. That's arrogance and elitism.
    That's somebody being a douche...

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Re the Bible - it's a book. It's a collection of stories. I know that probably makes me sound like an asshole to those who believe it to be the word of God, but I don't see it that way. I'm no Bible expert, but there are great ethics guidelines on just being a decent person. However, realistically, the Bible is a collection of stories that were voted on and assembled for political reasons (Council of Nicea).

    To go back to your comment that Jesus turned water to wine at a party, I logically cannot take the literal interpretation of that story seriously. What I can take seriously, because of logic, is that Jesus taught people how to make wine (which uses water as an ingredient). You can make wine in as little as 10 days and a lot of ancient recipes for beer and wine used a lot of honey to offset the flavor and increase fermentation activity.

    The point is, how easy would it be for the story of Jesus teaching folks to make wine for an upcoming celebration to evolve into he waved his hand over water and turned it into wine at a party? Sit 20 people in a circle and play the game telephone where the first person says a sentence and by the time it gets back around, it has completely changed.

    Here's the thing, I'm not saying that Jesus didn't do these things. However, I think literal acceptance of what the Bible says is illogical and does more harm to spreading Jesus's morals and messages than it does to help that.


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    I couldn't take those claims serious either, which is why I researched it. As C.S. Lewis said, if Jesus was who he said he was, what he said is of the utmost importance.

    Regarding the bible, I'm not expert on the bible either, ESPECIALLY the Old Testament. The New Testament however, is not a result of the "telephone game". They were written by Jesus disciples (aka students). Paul (or Saul of Tarsus) after his conversion first letters (or epistles, to the Thessalonians I believe) is written anywhere around I believe as little as 10 -14 years after Jesus death. The other Gospels are all within the first century, and there is good evidence they were all written before 70 A.D. within 40 years of Jesus death.

    There are great books on this topic. Some are VERY in depth, some are more of an overview. This one I thought was good (not great) but does a good job sorting through the evidence and summarizing it. It's about a cold case homicide detective (an atheist) who was invited to church by another officer in the L.A.P.D and after going, investigated the New Testament and concluded they were eye witness accounts.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00A71Y7I8...ng=UTF8&btkr=1
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin





  6. #30
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Correct, and that includes believing no one can be right. I believe that Jesus was who he said he was and what he said is true as a result. You believe that no one can be right, we're both acting on faith. I'm not being snarky or playing "gotcha", I'm being serious.
    No, I'm applying strict logic to the issue of religion. I'm applying absolutely no faith whatsoever to the question at hand.

    We, as finite beings, exist on a totally different plane as infinite beings. By logic and by definition, we cannot ever comprehend or understand anything infinite.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    I do have a question. You believe there is a God (as you said earlier), do you believe that God created the universe and everything in it?
    I believe that's certainly a possibility but again, I couldn't possibly say definitively one way or the another. Nor personally, do I really care all that much.

    Again, it's an issue of trying to understand the infinite. We can't. Perhaps when we shuffle off this mortal coil we will then know the answer but before then, it's all a mystery and I'm fine with that. There much in this life we, as humans, were not meant to understand.





  7. #31
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    I'll just say that when it comes to religion, or specifically Christianity, it's all a bunch of bunk. I'm an atheist.
    Follow me on Twitter:@DadeRSR

    "The world called for wetwork, and we answered. No greater good. No just cause." - Kazuhira Miller





  8. #32
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    No, I'm applying strict logic to the issue of religion. I'm applying absolutely no faith whatsoever to the question at hand.
    Maybe I'm just saying it wrong. A view that no one can know, means NO ONE can know that particular view is right. Which means, even you can't know that no one can know. If you don't know something, than you believe it, or... have faith.

    In the book I referenced in the first post. The author says "Ironically, the insistence that doctrines do not matter is really a doctrine itself. It holds a specific view of God, which is touted as superior and more enlightened than the beliefs of most major religions. So the proponents of this view do the very thing they forbid in others."

    and

    "How could you possibly know that no religion can see the whole truth unless you yourself have the superior, comprehensive knowledge of spiritual reality you just claimed that none of the religions have?"

    In a sense, that's what you're saying/doing. By saying it's undefinable, you have defined it yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    We, as finite beings, exist on a totally different plane as infinite beings. By logic and by definition, we cannot ever comprehend or understand anything infinite.
    I understand where you're coming from there. Personally, I don't think a being would have created the universe/us and not given us a way to know/understand it.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    I believe that's certainly a possibility but again, I couldn't possibly say definitively one way or the another. Nor personally, do I really care all that much.

    Again, it's an issue of trying to understand the infinite. We can't.
    Perhaps when we shuffle off this mortal coil we will then know the answer but before then, it's all a mystery and I'm fine with that. There much in this life we, as humans, were not meant to understand.
    What about science trying to define the universe? We try to define the origin of the universe, how big it is etc. If the universe was created by God, how can we define/understand that?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin





  9. #33
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Dade View Post
    I'll just say that when it comes to religion, or specifically Christianity, it's all a bunch of bunk. I'm an atheist.
    As I originally posted, I'm looking to see why you doubt what you doubt. Would you mind expanding?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin





  10. #34
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Maybe I'm just saying it wrong. A view that no one can know, means NO ONE can know that particular view is right. Which means, even you can't know that no one can know. If you don't know something, than you believe it, or... have faith.

    In the book I referenced in the first post. The author says "Ironically, the insistence that doctrines do not matter is really a doctrine itself. It holds a specific view of God, which is touted as superior and more enlightened than the beliefs of most major religions. So the proponents of this view do the very thing they forbid in others."

    and

    "How could you possibly know that no religion can see the whole truth unless you yourself have the superior, comprehensive knowledge of spiritual reality you just claimed that none of the religions have?"

    In a sense, that's what you're saying/doing. By saying it's undefinable, you have defined it yourself.
    I would agree that's what the author would argue. But I don't agree with the author's conclusions. I have made no definition because a factual definition is impossible. All religion is a best guess based mostly on faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    What about science trying to define the universe? We try to define the origin of the universe, how big it is etc. If the universe was created by God, how can we define/understand that?
    For the sake of argument, lets say God created everything in the universe. Those "things" God created are finite -- the stars, planets, us, animals, etc -- thus are within the comprehension of finite beings.





  11. #35
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    I would agree that's what the author would argue. But I don't agree with the author's conclusions. I have made no definition because a factual definition is impossible. All religion is a best guess based mostly on faith..


    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    For the sake of argument, lets say God created everything in the universe. Those "things" God created are finite -- the stars, planets, us, animals, etc -- thus are within the comprehension of finite beings.
    Understood, that makes sense.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin





  12. #36
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    As I originally posted, I'm looking to see why you doubt what you doubt. Would you mind expanding?
    For me - the story doesn't make sense. The premise is that Mary gave birth to Jesus without there being a father. So the Holy Spirit got Mary pregnant, out comes the baby - boom Jesus.

    I guess I Don't know how i can believe that.

    NOW I believe in god in the sense that there's a higher power that essentially puts out a form of a code to which I should hold myself and my values accountable for. It's not the ten commandments or anything, but I do believe that I need to conduct myself accordingly becuase there is some form of higher power standing over me and holding me accountable.

    I guess I just don't buy the whole story. How did Mary get pregnant? magic?
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