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05-08-2017, 08:11 PM #181
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05-10-2017, 03:15 PM #182
Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity
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05-10-2017, 03:21 PM #183
Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity
What about the 27 documents that make up the New Testament, all written within decades of Jesus? Or all of the other writings and letters from early church fathers?
The creed in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 was written in 55 AD or thereabouts. However, by that time it is believed by NT scholars (again, many of whom are non-believers) that this creed dates within a few years to within weeks of the crucifixion and resurrection. This creed written is from an oral tradition. But these were not passed on like the telephone game. Even in English you can read a rhythm in the creed to make it easily memorized and people would cite it again and again to memorize it. In other words, it wasn't something you heard once and tried to pass on and it was formed in a way that made it easier to remember (like a song or a poem has rhythm to it making remembering it easier).
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05-10-2017, 04:12 PM #184
Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity
Actually they weren't. From that time frame there are more copies of the NT documents than any other work of antiquity. There are 27 documents that make up the NT, it isn't one work. And 30-50 years after is hardly that big of a deal. Before the printing press much of what we accept as documents to use for historical research weren't written until hundreds or even a thousand years later. Try and find the earliest manuscripts about Julius Caesar. You might be surprised at how late the earliest ones were written.
Inside of 50 years of the event there are still people living who were eye witnesses, so these documents, from a historical perspective, are quite early.
Luke, author of that Gospel of that name and Acts, was a first rate historian. He was an eye witness to the last third or so of Acts, but all of the previous writing was done via interviews of eye witnesses. We convict people of crimes using this same method.
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05-10-2017, 04:15 PM #185
Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity
That is not true. Those pagan religions often pre-date Christianity but those beliefs that supposedly are similar to Christianity (can you list some?) are from documents a few hundred years AFTER the crucifixion and resurrection. While the religion may be older the beliefs that, again supposedly, are similar are not documented until well after Jesus. They could have easily been taken from Christianity.
But what beliefs do you think are similar?
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05-10-2017, 04:21 PM #186
Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity
No, the first Gospel did not take 50 years. John was most likely the last book written, even after Revelation, and that was done about 60 years after. Mark is very much earlier. Luke wrote Acts AFTER his Gospel. Acts ends without mentioning the deaths of Paul or Peter, its two most important players. Paul died in the mid-60s AD. Historically speaking it would be odd to write so much about Paul, including his last imprisonment, and not include his death (if it had occurred prior to writing). Acts, and the Gospel, were probably written as a defense for Paul's actions and before his death. The Gospel precedes Acts so it was written at the latest by the early 60s AD. Mark most certainly predates it and Matthew probably does.
There are pieces, not full manuscripts, but pieces of Mark and Matthew that date very early.
And again, the creed from 1 Corinthians is almost universally agreed upon to be within a few years of the Cross at the very latest.Last edited by Greg; 05-10-2017 at 04:36 PM.
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05-10-2017, 04:26 PM #187
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05-10-2017, 04:31 PM #188
Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity
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05-10-2017, 04:33 PM #189
Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity
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Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity
Have you ever read NT Wrights resurrection of the Son of God? I haven't gotten to it yet but I will read it this year. From what I've seen about it (in other books) there is no other explanation for the resurrection and part of that is there were no beliefs during that time of a bodily resurrection.
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05-10-2017, 04:40 PM #191
Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity
The Jewish belief of bodily resurrection was that God would raise everybody at the end of time (or the end times). The apostles held this belief up until the resurrection. It was one of the clear changes in their religious beliefs that show something amazing happened.
One of these resurrection stories from paganism involves a god masturbating in the woods and his "seed" becoming a tree. That is purported by some to be one story from which the resurrection was taken. I can't recall which god but it is one of the resurrection stories.
Oh, and I haven't read Wright's book.
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Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity
After a few people mentioned William Lane Craig I've been checking him out and came across this.
Wicked he addresses a few of the things you mentioned. i.e. Jesus by the Romans being crucified for being a political rebel.
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