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  1. #181
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity



    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Smoove, you really need to read those books I recommended. Message me your address if you want a hard copy or email addresss if you want a kindle version.

    But quickly, the Gospel writers were not historians, they did not write the Gospels to be historical accounts for the benefit of people hundreds of years (or thousands) of years later.

    They were preachers, preaching the message of Jesus, they wrote the Gospels for that purpose. And there are a lot of things that are written in there that you have to consider if you were making up a story, you wouldn't put those things in there to convince people during that time.

    A few examples.
    You wouldn't put that the Messiah, or the Son of God was born to a woman out of wedlock. You wouldn't put that he was born to a peasant. You'd write that he was royalty or a conquering hero.

    You wouldn't put that over and over again the disciples didn't understand what Jesus was telling them about who he was. Or at the last supper when he said he would be leaving them, not understand where he was going.

    You wouldn't put that he that when he was going to be crucified that he wasn't asking God for a way out (you'd probably put that he was brave and faced it like a martyr). And you wouldn't put that the last words out of his mouth were "My God, My God why hath thou forsaken me"

    You wouldn't put that women were the first to uncover the empty tomb, because women were 2nd class citizens and they're testimony didn't hold water back then.

    You wouldn't put that after SEVERAL appearances after his resurrection that some still doubted he had risen

    There are also several things written in the Gospels that give credit to them being eye witness accounts because of eye witness statements that are in there that don't add or move the story line (which if they were made up, eye witness statements would) like for example. When Nathaniel first met Jesus, Jesus says a true Israelite with whom there is nothing false . Nathaniel ask, how do you know that? Jesus says cause I saw you under the fig tree, with no other explanation. That adds nothing to the story, so adding that has no point, unless... that's how you remember it happening.

    Like I said, send me how you want me to get you the books and they will answer a lot of questions.
    Ok brother I will PM you


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  2. #182
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Baltravens View Post
    The only little doubts I have being educated in Catholic schools most of my life is that there are a few books from the Bible where their authenticity comes into question. Some professors in college stated that affected their validity.

    I did not focus on that that much rather spending my time with studies at a nationally-ranked university on Ethics and smoothing out my labor/blue collar roots where the fist was used more than the pen.

    I recently had some cherished conversations with the legendary preacher Billy Graham, but I am not going to detail those here out of respect for him. I would like to one day lay the foundation for a theocracy in America.
    A theocracy is the worst thing that can and has happened to Christianity. Theocracy gave us the Inquisition, for example.

    The Gospel thrives and spreads best in places like China right now. Christianity does better under persecution than it does married to the state.





  3. #183
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Jsmoove View Post
    I just can't get with a whole book that was written like a 1000yrs after Jesus and there is hardly any actual facts text anywhere out there about Jesus, just a lot of speculation, not even the dead sea scrolls mentions Jesus. BUT that's where I am at in life right now, I haven't figured it out all yet lol
    What about the 27 documents that make up the New Testament, all written within decades of Jesus? Or all of the other writings and letters from early church fathers?

    The creed in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 was written in 55 AD or thereabouts. However, by that time it is believed by NT scholars (again, many of whom are non-believers) that this creed dates within a few years to within weeks of the crucifixion and resurrection. This creed written is from an oral tradition. But these were not passed on like the telephone game. Even in English you can read a rhythm in the creed to make it easily memorized and people would cite it again and again to memorize it. In other words, it wasn't something you heard once and tried to pass on and it was formed in a way that made it easier to remember (like a song or a poem has rhythm to it making remembering it easier).





  4. #184
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Jsmoove View Post
    like for one why did it take so long for someone to write the new testament? I mean people were reading and writing their ass off long before the death of Christ and during the life of christ? so it took them almost 50yrs to write even one Gospel, then another 100-300yrs to write the whole NT? I don't know man I am not saying it's false but I am not going to sit back and not question stuff either.
    Actually they weren't. From that time frame there are more copies of the NT documents than any other work of antiquity. There are 27 documents that make up the NT, it isn't one work. And 30-50 years after is hardly that big of a deal. Before the printing press much of what we accept as documents to use for historical research weren't written until hundreds or even a thousand years later. Try and find the earliest manuscripts about Julius Caesar. You might be surprised at how late the earliest ones were written.

    Inside of 50 years of the event there are still people living who were eye witnesses, so these documents, from a historical perspective, are quite early.

    Luke, author of that Gospel of that name and Acts, was a first rate historian. He was an eye witness to the last third or so of Acts, but all of the previous writing was done via interviews of eye witnesses. We convict people of crimes using this same method.





  5. #185
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Jsmoove View Post
    Christianity also have borrowed pagan beliefs from ancient Sumeria and Egypt, there are a lot of likeness in today's Christianity with pagan religions.
    That is not true. Those pagan religions often pre-date Christianity but those beliefs that supposedly are similar to Christianity (can you list some?) are from documents a few hundred years AFTER the crucifixion and resurrection. While the religion may be older the beliefs that, again supposedly, are similar are not documented until well after Jesus. They could have easily been taken from Christianity.

    But what beliefs do you think are similar?





  6. #186
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Jsmoove View Post
    like I said with the old testament there are other historical text that coincide with it, like for instances, some other Egyptian texts out there tells some of the same stuff the old testament tells, for e.g the Exodus you can find other Egyptian text that mentioned this outside of Christian written books so yea I reference the old testament...and yes the first gospel took 50yrs to write so by your logic if people couldn't read and write all that well then where the hell they got the information from then 50yrs later?? please i'll wait for answer I am eager to know.
    No, the first Gospel did not take 50 years. John was most likely the last book written, even after Revelation, and that was done about 60 years after. Mark is very much earlier. Luke wrote Acts AFTER his Gospel. Acts ends without mentioning the deaths of Paul or Peter, its two most important players. Paul died in the mid-60s AD. Historically speaking it would be odd to write so much about Paul, including his last imprisonment, and not include his death (if it had occurred prior to writing). Acts, and the Gospel, were probably written as a defense for Paul's actions and before his death. The Gospel precedes Acts so it was written at the latest by the early 60s AD. Mark most certainly predates it and Matthew probably does.

    There are pieces, not full manuscripts, but pieces of Mark and Matthew that date very early.

    And again, the creed from 1 Corinthians is almost universally agreed upon to be within a few years of the Cross at the very latest.
    Last edited by Greg; 05-10-2017 at 04:36 PM.





  7. #187
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Jsmoove View Post
    ancient Sumerian and ancient Egyptian, from depictions to even some of the stuff found in the old testament of the bible on God and those religions of antiquity about their deities are very very similar, I am reading some books right now on ancient Sumer and babylon and there are a lot comparison to what we know now in Christianity. Also there are some Ancient Egyptian stories that are eerily similar to the story of Jesus the God Horus is one of those stories, heck even in Greco Roman mysteries there are stories that pre-dates Jesus that sounds like the life of Jesus (Dionysus). All these pagan religions pre-date Jesus and Christianity.
    Can you be specific about how Horus was like Jesus?





  8. #188
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Jsmoove View Post
    I understand that but In those times things were recorded, documented, there was a tax system back then they knew how to document; people were literate so you would think out these multitudes and multitudes of people that followed Jesus someone had to write something down somewhere? So we have this oral tradition right? So Jesus supposedly died around 30 AD? The first gospel Matthew was written 20yrs later based on word of mouth from someone's memory due to oral tradition? You can't tell me that doesn't beg for questions.


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    It's true there was a tax system, the problem is specific records about specific people in Palestine from that time are not available, at least not in any detail (if at all).

    Oral tradition is perfectly acceptable as I have noted.





  9. #189
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    But quickly, the Gospel writers were not historians, they did not write the Gospels to be historical accounts for the benefit of people hundreds of years (or thousands) of years later.
    While Luke was a physician he was also a first rate historian (or at least investigative journalist). Everything that we can verify from Luke and Acts has been shown that Luke was very accurate in even the smallest details.





  10. #190
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    That is not true. Those pagan religions often pre-date Christianity but those beliefs that supposedly are similar to Christianity (can you list some?) are from documents a few hundred years AFTER the crucifixion and resurrection. While the religion may be older the beliefs that, again supposedly, are similar are not documented until well after Jesus. They could have easily been taken from Christianity.

    But what beliefs do you think are similar?
    Have you ever read NT Wrights resurrection of the Son of God? I haven't gotten to it yet but I will read it this year. From what I've seen about it (in other books) there is no other explanation for the resurrection and part of that is there were no beliefs during that time of a bodily resurrection.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin





  11. #191
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Have you ever read NT Wrights resurrection of the Son of God? I haven't gotten to it yet but I will read it this year. From what I've seen about it (in other books) there is no other explanation for the resurrection and part of that is there were no beliefs during that time of a bodily resurrection.
    The Jewish belief of bodily resurrection was that God would raise everybody at the end of time (or the end times). The apostles held this belief up until the resurrection. It was one of the clear changes in their religious beliefs that show something amazing happened.

    One of these resurrection stories from paganism involves a god masturbating in the woods and his "seed" becoming a tree. That is purported by some to be one story from which the resurrection was taken. I can't recall which god but it is one of the resurrection stories.

    Oh, and I haven't read Wright's book.





  12. #192
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    Re: What are your doubts about religion/Christianity

    After a few people mentioned William Lane Craig I've been checking him out and came across this.

    Wicked he addresses a few of the things you mentioned. i.e. Jesus by the Romans being crucified for being a political rebel.

    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin





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