Returner??

**GOTA** · 05-20-2015, 09:25 AM

No reason to add anyone. Lots of options to work through during camp

**Ravenswintitle** · 05-20-2015, 09:45 AM

they've mentioned Camp but I'm sure it's an open competition.

**ravensintennessee** · 05-20-2015, 09:52 AM

To me Camp seems more like a punt guy, and I'm excited for Carter -- who to me seems like more of a KR. But probably for Camp's health's sake/healthy development as a WR, I'd like to see Carter earn a lot of trust (and thus make the squad) and take over both duties.

Although from Reed to Webb to Camp, for punts, the coaching staff has always put a high premium on ball security, decision making, and maturity. I have a feeling that fumbling a punt is one of the worst sins on this team.

Again, hopefully Carter gets after it, I'm rooting for the kid.

**Bawlamer** · 05-20-2015, 10:16 AM

Maybe Carter? He's had some experience. Camp... I'd like to see him develop into a polished route running receiver.
http://www.baltimoreravens.com/team/...-c02f9abf5373/

**Spider Webb** · 05-20-2015, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by JAB1985

I think we have a lot of options. CBs, WRs, RBs... Didnt Toussaint do some KRs? depends how the roster shakes out.

Honestly im not to worried about returner. I think its overrated. weve had great returners besides Jones since Harbs has been here. Most of that is because Rosburg has our team blocking really well. as long as the guy is sure handed hell be around the top in the league imo.

Agreed. I've said this multiple times on the board, but I HATE when a kicker takes the ball out of the end zone.

In 2014: 6 out of 1,226 kick returns went for touchdowns. That's a 0.5% chance to score a TD on a kick return for an NFL team last year.

2013: 0.54% chance

2012: 0.93% chance

From the Ravens perspective we returned 1 of 38 kickoffs for a TD last season. If you don't include Jacoby's 108 yard TD the Ravens returned 37 kicks for 969 yards last season. That's a 26 yard average per return. If you consider that most kicks travel about 5 yards into the end zone essentially we're returning every kick to the 20 yard line anyway....whats the benefit of returning a kick?

The cons for returning a kick:

1. Injury
2. Holding/Block in the back.....now you're starting at the 10 yard line.
3. Turnover

How many times did Jacoby only return it to the 15 yard line? How many times did we have to start at our own 10 yard line because of a penalty.

For those of you who will say, “WHAT ABOUT JACOBYS SUPER BOWL TD!!!!!”

Last 3 years post season kick off return percentages:

2014: 0/49 kick off returns.

2013: 1/62, 1.6%

2012: 2/67, 3%

2 of the 3 kick offs returned for TDs in the last 3 years were opening kicks of the 2nd half....that has to be some crazy statistical anomaly.

I didn't include 2011 because that was the first year after the kick off yard line rule change was implemented. Unfair to judge teams the first year after a rule change.

**ERey** · 05-20-2015, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by swinner

With Jacoby gone, whose our new return man? Webb, campanaro, etc. do we take a chance on josh cribbs whose a FA still? what does everyone think?

I don't know. But I do know it can't be Webb or any starting defensive back.

**alienstar** · 05-20-2015, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by JAB1985

I think we have a lot of options. CBs, WRs, RBs... Didnt Toussaint do some KRs? depends how the roster shakes out.

Honestly im not to worried about returner. I think its overrated. weve had great returners besides Jones since Harbs has been here. Most of that is because Rosburg has our team blocking really well. as long as the guy is sure handed hell be around the top in the league imo.

You may be more right than wrong by overrating the returner, but only since the rule change. I still believe it can be very X-factorish having a dangerous guy, even now. The 16 game season makes one game so critical that it's still worth having that guy who may win 1 game for you. As in 10-6 versus 9-7, pretty critical.

**RavensZ06** · 05-20-2015, 01:50 PM

What about Worthy? Does he have any experience? I really dont want a DB out there so no to Webb or Asa. WRs are in order of how I think they make the team as WRs
SR obviously not
Perriman nope
M Brown nope
Waller no
Camp maybe
Than you have Aiken, Worthy, Carter and Im guessing Butler and Robinson go on the PS. But Aiken, Worthy and Carter are competing for the 6th, or if we carry 7(doubtfull) Worthy and Carter are PS eligible. Aiken is not.

Just with all that Id hand the duties to Camp and Worthy and Carter to the PS also. Maybe. Thats taking up alot of spots for WR. Honestly I think those 3 guys are battling for 1 spot, and Carter and Worthy battling Butler and Robinson for 2 ps spots. And the rest get cut. Maybe one can be IRd on a mysterious injury. So well see if Carter can beat out Camp for returning. Otherwise Im thinking he may be the one with a injury.

**HotInHere** · 05-20-2015, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Spider Webb

Agreed. I've said this multiple times on the board, but I HATE when a kicker takes the ball out of the end zone.

In 2014: 6 out of 1,226 kick returns went for touchdowns. That's a 0.5% chance to score a TD on a kick return for an NFL team last year.

2013: 0.54% chance

2012: 0.93% chance

From the Ravens perspective we returned 1 of 38 kickoffs for a TD last season. If you don't include Jacoby's 108 yard TD the Ravens returned 37 kicks for 969 yards last season. That's a 26 yard average per return. If you consider that most kicks travel about 5 yards into the end zone essentially we're returning every kick to the 20 yard line anyway....whats the benefit of returning a kick?

The cons for returning a kick:

1. Injury
2. Holding/Block in the back.....now you're starting at the 10 yard line.
3. Turnover

How many times did Jacoby only return it to the 15 yard line? How many times did we have to start at our own 10 yard line because of a penalty.

For those of you who will say, “WHAT ABOUT JACOBYS SUPER BOWL TD!!!!!”

Last 3 years post season kick off return percentages:

2014: 0/49 kick off returns.

2013: 1/62, 1.6%

2012: 2/67, 3%

2 of the 3 kick offs returned for TDs in the last 3 years were opening kicks of the 2nd half....that has to be some crazy statistical anomaly.

I didn't include 2011 because that was the first year after the kick off yard line rule change was implemented. Unfair to judge teams the first year after a rule change.

I disagree with your analysis.

It's more than just how many kicks go for TD's. Getting a return out to the 40 is huge. Getting a return out to the 24 is as much a positive as getting stopped at the 16 is a negative.

It makes no sense to say "if you discount Jacoby's 108 yard return." That's kinda the point in favor of taking kicks out of the end zone. SOMETIMES they go for 108 yards. But for fun, let's exclude the big play and go ahead with your average of 26 yards per return.
Here are the average NFL kickoff distances from last season. The overall average depth of kickoff is 64.43 yards, or just shy of the goal line. That's the average -- not five yards deep as you suggest.

So yes, sometimes a penalty or a misplay cost us a few yards over a touchback. But other times, a return went out to the 30, or 40, or farther. And the latter happened more often.

Here is a very good article arguing that it is ALWAYS a good idea to return the kick from your end zone, no matter how deep it is. I tend to disagree with that blanket statement. A good returner makes his decision based on hang time and how the direction of the kick plays into their return play vs the anticipated coverage. Those aspects are not included in this analysis. But from a strictly cost/benefit, you are much more likely to have a big return than you are to get backed up against your own end zone no matter how deep in the end zone you run it out from.

**RavensZ06** · 05-20-2015, 02:19 PM

You would think a stat like average starting position on a kickoff would be a easy thing to look up lol. Guess not. Last year Jacoby averaged 30.6 yards per kickoff return. So essentially we started past the 20 more so than at or behind it. Now not sure if penalties are included, Im guessing not as it wasnt Jacobys fault if there was a block in the back, but maybe they do factor that in.

To be honest the eyeball test said we started at the 20 or less more times than not. Last year I cringed anytime JJ brought it out from the end zone. The year before not so much, we begged him to bring it out. But 2014 he def lost a step. So glad hes gone. Just like Cribbs. Washed up and not much left in the tank.

I dont know whos speedier Camp or Carter or even Worthy might as well throw his name in also as hes on the roster. And who is smarter in picking the correct hole or crease. But well find out come TC and preseason. But if it says even limpy Jacoby of 2014 can average 30 yards per return than hell one of these guys should be able to start us from the 25 more times than less than 20.

**ravensintennessee** · 05-20-2015, 02:50 PM

Yeah, the block in the back/holding penalties absolutely destroy momentum and obviously field position. Whoever takes over KR duties, I think (and am glad) we'll see the returner rarely try from 5+ yards deep in the endzone. I always felt like while Jacoby had brilliant speed and pretty good feel for creases, almost every return touchdown he had in purple was blocked extremely well. That's good scheme and good execution by the other 10 men. Rosburg is hugely important. Carter is roughly a 4.4 guy? Something like that should be good enough to hit it with the right speed.