Pats going after season ticket holders who sell on StubHub

**Admin Steve** · 10-19-2007, 12:11 PM

What do you think of this. The Pats org are trying to get the seat numbers of all Pats tix sold on Stub Hub and the Internet in general since it violates team policy and local scalping laws.

Link: http://www.kansascity.com/sports/foo...ry/323874.html

We'll be next. You watch :)

**ExiledRaven** · 10-19-2007, 12:23 PM

I am *not* a fan of this at all.

Sure, there is a contract, those PSL holders may or may not be violating it. State scalping law has nothing to do with it, that's a criminal action the Pats can't bring that type of case. Get the state to do it.

Would it not just be easier to get StubHub to require that the seat numbers and sections of tickets be entered into a system before the auction is posted. If a PSL ticket comes up, then you can either 1) set a maximum price to comply with scalping laws 2) not permit a sale if in violation of your PSL contract??? So difficult. If the pats are mad, it's cheaper for them to just maintain the system than litigate this case against StubHub (unless they have attorneys on fixed fee retainer)

My problem is how long before the government or some private party sues Google, MSN, or some other group to release web-search information? Web-based Email (gmail, hotmail)?

**mavhimself** · 10-19-2007, 12:51 PM

i heard of a similar thing happening for the led zeppelin "reunion" in england that will be going down. their manager was trying to stop people who were selling tix on ebay. wish i had a link but that's what i heard on radio recently.

**Nightman** · 10-19-2007, 01:41 PM

I think that the Ravens could be the next ones to do so, now that they have a long waiting list that is almost full. The Ravens already have an "Offical" ticket broker, Tickets Now. Unsubstaniated BS removed Sorry I don't have a link for that story, but that is what I heard on another message board.

**HoustonRaven** · 10-19-2007, 01:48 PM

It wont happen here.

If you look at your PSL agreement, there is no language that says you cant resell your tix higher than face value. That's exactly why a PSL was created -- you buy the rights to the seats and can dispose of them how you see fit as long as you follow the terms set forth in the PSL agreement. Obtaining market value for the tickets you have the rights to is perfectly fine and legal.

I went ahead and called my ticket rep and he said the same thing. There are city scalping laws but no state scalping laws. The only way you'd get into hot water is if you sold your tix to someone and they get into a fight in the stands. They track incidents by seat and section number, not by the knucklehead who gets wasted and decides to ruin it for everyone else. If you do sell on Ebay or StubHub, you have to keep that in the back of your mind.

Simply put, just no scalping in the city limits.

**SHORTTRACK** · 10-19-2007, 02:45 PM

I believe the City code states that it can not be done within a mile of the stadium.

**ClericBlackDave** · 10-19-2007, 03:11 PM

the issue here is that there was an agreement that as a season ticket holder you cannot sell above face value. It was a contract, and they have every legal right to make sure its upheld, which is why the court decided in their favor.

Now the Ravens PSL owners are in a decidedly different situation.

However, if we are arguing the normative reasons scalping is good or bad, I can tell you that as someone who's bought from scalpers its mostly bad for me.

I can immediate see the biasses of PSL owner coming out, because I'm sure there are those of you that sell off the tickets for the few games you don't "feel" like attending at profits that cover a great deal, if not more than, the cost of season tickets per year.

While thats good for you, it sucks for the rest of us.

Overall, there is plenty enough immediate demand for their not to be a secondary market i.e. scalping of tickets.

Of course, the libertarians out there are about to reply about how good markets are, but in general with events like concerts and professional sports the proprieters have an interest in making the tickets affordable to your average run of the mill fan. Scalping circumvents this.

**HoustonRaven** · 10-19-2007, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by ClericBlackDave

Of course, the libertarians out there are about to reply about how good markets are, but in general with events like concerts and professional sports the proprieters have an interest in making the tickets affordable to your average run of the mill fan. Scalping circumvents this.

You couldnt be more wrong.

People who run concert and sporting events generally dont have a concern on making tickets affordable, they have a concern of making the most money with whatever product they are selling. If it requires a lower price, they will lower the price but the objective is ALWAYS to get the most money out of the consumer. People are not "owed" good prices. Owners such as Mr. Bisciotti, Angelos, et all have a responsibility to make money first then make the product as afforable as possible second.

PSL's allow the every day Joe, who wants to own a slice of a team, to buy and sell the tickets they have the rights to in any manner they see fit. There isnt anything more American than that!

If you want to sell for face value, go for it. If you want to max profits, go for that too. It's all about choice, not the market.

Seems to me you're just jealous. You're obviously not a PSL owner so instead of working within the system by working hard, saving the money, getting on the list and buying PSL's, you attack the system under which they are offered, bartered and traded.

Pretty bad logic.

**FHRaven** · 10-19-2007, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by ClericBlackDave

Of course, the libertarians out there are about to reply about how good markets are, but in general with events like concerts and professional sports the proprieters have an interest in making the tickets affordable to your average run of the mill fan. Scalping circumvents this.

I disagree. Their interest is in making as much money as they can. Does a concert program really cost $80 - $100 to produce? Is that beer at the stadium costing the Ravens $8?

The Ravens raised their tickets by a minimum of 20%(I think, to lazy to look it up) last year. Was that in the interest of the run of the mill fan? In their comments on the price increase, they noted that they had reviewed the value of tix at online sites. It's all about the $$$.

**Greg** · 10-19-2007, 03:22 PM

If they are going after ticket brokers, good. But the average fan who sells a game he can't make is another issue.

Sorry I don't have a link for that story, but that is what I heard on another message board.

Which is exactly why I am editing it out of your take. It was on a message board from some other poster without any kind of documentation and you post as confirmed fact. Not here.

**Greg** · 10-19-2007, 04:39 PM

Of course, the libertarians out there are about to reply about how good markets are, . . .

As a Libertarian I can tell you I love free markets. Brokers cornering blocks of tickets and then selling them to the highest bidder is NOT a free market. It shouldn't be illegal but the people who sell the original tickets have an obligation to try and make sure the tickets go to fans and not brokers who then exploit a semi-monopoly they have.

**ravensfan1996** · 10-19-2007, 04:57 PM

It doesnt matter if none of the tickets are sold to ticket brokers or not, the market will bear the price. There are 70,000 seats in m&t. 65,000 (estimate) are psl holders, leaving 5000 for the public sale. So even if none of them went to ticket brokers, you still have WAY too many fans that want tickets then that are available. Its just the way it is, stadiums cant sell more seats they dont have. Same with tickle me elmo's, playstation 3's, google stock at $99 3 years ago (now selling for $600+, early bird gets the worm.

Orioles tickets are easy to come buy now (unlike 10 yrs ago), go ahead and get 2 lower box seats for the orioles now, and in a few years when they are good again (HAHAHAHA) youll too can rake in the profits.

When the ravens went 6-10 a few years ago you couldnt give tickets away thier last few home games.