Can Joe Be Successful With His Current Cast?

[BcRaven]

Yes, those who feel the Ravens should lean towards one side or the other, I believe Flacco can win with the current cast. The Ravens are a TEAM effort, whether offense/defense/special teams, Ozzie Newsome drafts the players he thinks will help the TEAM more than another. That is why our TEAM has been to the playoffs 6 times in the last 7 years and has a Super Bowl victory under it's collective belt. Let guys like Philip Rivers put up great stats, but stay home in January. Give me our average Joe leading our TEAM while the snow falls... Bc

[Rxdoxx]

The Ravens are a TEAM effort, whether offense/defense/special teams, Ozzie Newsome drafts the players he thinks will help the TEAM more than another. That is why our TEAM has been to the playoffs 6 times in the last 7 years and has a Super Bowl victory under it's collective belt.

Adding a mention also of depth.
Next man up has been so true for this franchise.
The only time I can recall it not so was when Jamal went down (Terry Allen, Brookins, Moe Williams)
If there isn't someone on the roster ready like Franks and Chykie weren't they are replaced by Melvin, Carter .....
Haloti loses his pep and Jernigan steps up
Monroe gimps and Hurst steps in, as does Urschel
Rice goes, next man up has a career year by a landslide.

You are spot on, it is team and that bodes well for each season.
We haven't seen the full current cast, it is still in pre-draft hole plugging stage, I'd guess that at least 12 (probably more) players of the 53 aren't on the team yet.

[Ravenstatsman]

Actually Flacco is on his 4th OC. But your point still stands.

This is going to be Joe's 3rd OC, I wouldn't even count Caldwell lol.

[Ravenstatsman]

I think Joe can be very successful with the WR's we have, but only if we were to add a beast RB behind our O-line (Gurley or Gordon). We don't necessarily have to add a WR to improve our passing game.

We do need more TE help though.

[JCro]

We need to draft someone early.

I like our young guys I really do, but none of them bring anythjng special to the table. Aiken has a skillset that is redundant to marlon. Solid hands, big body, decent route runner.

Camp has the best chance of contributing, he has the skillset that the team has been missing. Juilan Edelman type of guy. I think he is in the plans if he can stay healthy.

Snith sr is good for 7-8 games before he flames out.

This current cast does not have a deep threat among it. Smith sr doesn't burn like he used to, and while camp is fast he is more agility, shifty fast than straight line speed. I know I know 40 times blah blah. He plays fast on film because of his quick of direction, I do not think he has the size or the body build to consistently fight for the deep ball. He is a true slot guy, and can be effective in that role once he can stay on the field.

Butler showed promise but is still an unkown.

I only want to add to this group through the draft, if we fail to get someone then so be it. I am tired of pushing the young guys down the depth chart for 30 somethings who have shown they are done. Smith sr being an exception.

Double dip- strong or d smith early then one of hardy, agohlar or lockett and then we will have players with complimenting skill sets.

[The Excellector]

I think BT is just talking about the premise of the thread.

[Sarcasticfury]

You ignored the premise of my post.

1) Gates is likely a HoFer with or without Rivers.

2) Malcolm Floyd is a nobody.

Can you guarantee that Gates would've had all this success without a Hall of Fame QB passing him the ball. And Floyd is a pretty successful nobody seeing as he's and undrafted WR who's carved out a 10 year career.

Holmes was a 1st rd pick. Super Bowl MVP.
Randle-El. Second rd pick.
Wallace and Sanders 3rd rd picks.

I'm aware of where those receivers were drafted. What I was pointing out is how Roethlisberger got them paid and how they all sucked somewhere else when forced to play with lesser QBs, with the exception of Sanders who plays for Peyton.

Brown - needle in a haystack, like Brady

Or it could be that he has a top QB throwing to him.

Both Moss and Gronk were/are phenomenal. Elite.

I was referring to everyone not named Moss or Gronk. David Patten, Troy Brown, David Givens, Deion Branch, Welker, Edelman. All those nobodies that Brady was elite with.

Ummm...Nick was a 1st rd pick.

Steve Smith a 2nd rd pick.

Manningham a 3rd rd pick.

And tell me, what did ANY of them do when they didn't have Eli throwing to them?

Jennings, Nelson and Cobb were 2nd rd picks.
James Jones a 3rd rd pick.

Again, not talking about investment here, I'm talking about the fact that Jennings and Jones went to Suck Island when separated from Rodgers. And I'm willing to bet that Cobb and Nelson would go there too.

And yet the Seahawks saw fit to spend TWO 1st rd picks on Percy and Graham. WEIRD.

But apparently the Seahawks had enough confidence in their undrafted receivers to trade Percy to the Jets for a 6th.

You either didn't comprehend or just flat out ignored the basis of the post. Because the point I was trying to make is that whether a receiver is drafted in the 1st or not drafted at all isn't going to mean anything (unless they're a beast like Moss, Fitzy, or Megatron) if they have a terrible QB throwing the ball at them. The QBs listed made the pass catchers listed into stars, regardless of where they were taken in the draft or if they even were.

[HKusp]

When was the last time a team with a true "elite" #1 wide receiver even went to the Superbowl? The Ravens were some better DB play away from the AFCCG last year with everyone on the roster at wide receiver they have now. Would it be great to have an Odell Beckham on the team? Absolutely, but when you usually pick in the last 3rd of the draft every year, it makes it harder to get that guy.

[Raven Werewolf]

When was the last time a team with a true "elite" #1 wide receiver even went to the Superbowl? The Ravens were some better DB play away from the AFCCG last year with everyone on the roster at wide receiver they have now. Would it be great to have an Odell Beckham on the team? Absolutely, but when you usually pick in the last 3rd of the draft every year, it makes it harder to get that guy.

Off top of my head Id say Arizona. That IS a pretty long time...... interesting way to look at it.

[JonAB]

Off top of my head Id say Arizona. That IS a pretty long time...... interesting way to look at it.

2014- Gronkowski- argue that he is a TE all you want, he's still a top 5 pass catcher in the league.
2013- Demaryious Thomas
2012- No one although Anquan played like he did in his early Arizona years, when he was one of the top WRs in the league.
2011- Victor Cruz
2010- No one I would truly call elite (at the time anyway) but crazy depth with Driver, Jennings, Nelson, and Jones.
2009- Peyton had some pretty nice WRs on the losing side. Bree's had Colston but I'm not going to say he was an elite wr.

Anyway, lots of WRs there

[bt12483]

You ignored the premise of my post.

The premise of your post seemed to be that other QBs were turning chickenshit into chickensalad, so why can't Joe.

Ignoring the fact that the QBs you listed in comparison have had greater draft pick expenditure used to support them, and in fact were basically turning chickensalad into...chickensalad, because they already had the talent drafted for them.

Can you guarantee that Gates would've had all this success without a Hall of Fame QB passing him the ball. And Floyd is a pretty successful nobody seeing as he's and undrafted WR who's carved out a 10 year career.

No, I can't guarantee, just like you can't guarantee the opposite.

But you seem to be implying that the QB is primarily responsible for these undrafted players blossoming, without giving any credit to the person himself.

Yes, there will be undrafted and late round players that blossom into stars. THAT IS A RARITY. Not the norm. Go compare hit rates with respect to draft round. The correlation is CLEAR.

The best bet is DRAFTING HIGH - gee, ever wonder why the Raven use so many HIGH picks on DEFENSE? Uh...because they know the hit rate is better.

I'm aware of where those receivers were drafted. What I was pointing out is how Roethlisberger got them paid and how they all sucked somewhere else when forced to play with lesser QBs, with the exception of Sanders who plays for Peyton.

And who just got Torrey paid?

Who got Jacoby on Dancing with the Stars?

I guess that means nothing?

Or it could be that he has a top QB throwing to him.

Or it could be scheme and surrounding talent.

I was referring to everyone not named Moss or Gronk. David Patten, Troy Brown, David Givens, Deion Branch, Welker, Edelman. All those nobodies that Brady was elite with.

And yet since 2008, Brady has still received more draft support.

Brady has gotten 8 WRs with an average draft position of rd. 4.25
Flacco has gotten 8 WRs with an average draft position of rd 5.25 - A FULL ROUND LATER ON AVERAGE

Brady has gotten 3 TEs with an average draft position of rd. 3.67
Flacco has gotten 3TEs with an average draft position of rd 4

Brady has gotten 2 RBs with an average draft position of rd. 2.5
Flacco has gotten 4 RBs with an average draft position of rd 4.75 - A FULL 2+ ROUNDs LATER

So who has had higher valued more draft capital spent on skill position players between Brady and Flacco? BRADY

And tell me, what did ANY of them do when they didn't have Eli throwing to them?

Get injured?

Again, not talking about investment here,

That's weird, because your first post clearly states:

I'm asking this because there's plenty of top quarterbacks in the league who have made their pass catchers stars despite constant attrition/low investments.

I've proved that every QB that you listed has had MORE investment than Flacco.

Name me any other QB that spent their entire career with their #1WR being 30+ years old.

I'm talking about the fact that Jennings and Jones went to Suck Island when separated from Rodgers. And I'm willing to bet that Cobb and Nelson would go there too.

Just like our defensive players leave and don't work out??

THAT'S CALLED SCHEME AND SURROUNDING TALENT. Go check out some stats when Flynn played for injured Rodgers.

But apparently the Seahawks had enough confidence in their undrafted receivers to trade Percy to the Jets for a 6th.

But yet that doesn't negate that they WILLINGLY gave a 1st rd pick AND a huge contract to get Wilson a #1 WR. The fact that Harvin is a nutcase has nothing to do with the value the Seahawks gave up for him.

Oh, and they just spent another #1 to get Graham...probably because they are so "confident" in Wilson right? RIGHT?

Weird that they have so much "confidence" in Wilson yet spent TWO FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICKS ON WR AND TE. WEIRD.

You either didn't comprehend or just flat out ignored the basis of the post. Because the point I was trying to make is that whether a receiver is drafted in the 1st or not drafted at all isn't going to mean anything (unless they're a beast like Moss, Fitzy, or Megatron) if they have a terrible QB throwing the ball at them. The QBs listed made the pass catchers listed into stars, regardless of where they were taken in the draft or if they even were.

There is a clear correlation between average draft position and stardom.

Hence, why the Ravens historically use HIGH drafts picks on DEFENSE. There is a linear hit rate that follows in accordance with the level of the selection rd.

Just because an Antonio Brown or Antonio Gates exists, does not mean that on average late rd players become stars more than first rounders. In fact, clearly the opposite is true. First rounders become stars more often than late rounders. Is this even up for debate?? There is an entire industry surrounding the draft to determine which players will become stars, and they get ranked, AND selected, accordingly.

As I've shown, the QBs you've listed have not turned nobodies into somebodies - they were largely working with WRs that were drafted rd 3 or higher. Which, quite simply and quite obviously, is NOT the case with Flacco.

Eli Manning has had, at minimum TWO #1s, TWO #2s, and a #3 WRs drafted for him. On what planet do you live on to not see the disparity in support, in this particular example, between Flacco and Eli? The divide is miles wide.

[HKusp]

Off top of my head Id say Arizona. That IS a pretty long time...... interesting way to look at it.

That is exactly my point. All this hand wringing by some over the fact that the Ravens never investing in top elite WR talent gets old. Ozzie and company are very aware of the components that make it possible to go to and win the Superbowl. They try every year to make the Ravens roster into one that closely mirrors what they have decided is possible given the current cap, available free agents, and draft position. I think it is highly likely that Ozzie and his staff have identified the fact that for every time a guy like Larry Fitzgerald or Jerry Rice makes it to the Superbowl, there have been 12 teams that have made it with far less talent at the WR position than they have.