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  1. #25

    Re: The Deflate Gate Thread



    This isn't about 1 game vs. Indy.

    This speaks to a 7-8 year pattern of behavior since the rules change about visiting teams getting to bring their own footballs to use in the game. If the NFL does the right kind of investigation, and I have no hope that they will b/c it could be a very ugly outcome, this could lead to casting a shadow of doubt about the whole Patriots legacy. If they have been systemically gaining an unfair competitive advantage over nearly a decade of football they should have repercussions that make the Saints bountygate penalty look minor in comparison.

    Think about how 1 fumble per game, 1 sideline catch to gain a crucial 3rd down conversion, could impact a game. How many times could 1 play have changed an outcome?

    This is a HUGE story potentially. It could be the greatest cheating scandal in modern sports history. Yet, it bores people and is damn near impossible to prove without an insider ratting out the scheme. (If it's actually a scheme) The fumble stats are a good place to start. While they don't prove anything, it's tough to come up with a rational, logical explanation. http://linemakers.sportingnews.com/n...nge-game-balls





  2. Re: The Deflate Gate Thread

    Well, I am glad I am not alone in my line of thinking.





  3. #27
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    Re: The Deflate Gate Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NC Raven View Post
    In a court setting nothing has to be "factually proven". The standard in non-criminal cases is "preponderance of the evidence", also knowm as "more likely than not." Or, is it at least 50.1% likely to have happened. That is in fact the same standard the NFL claims to use in its investigations, including this one.
    True. Which is why I think they will (and should) get penalized for it.

    But evidence that they did this with repeated malice is conjecture at best. The least of which, the correlative graph showing fumble rates, is one giant logical fallacy and rather unimpressive (just like all correlative graphs).

    I find the Carnegie Mellon experiment showing how it could be a natural phenomenon as every bit as credible as Bill Nye and others who have said otherwise.

    But alas, Belichick should have known about all of this and the buck stops with him. If something is going on on his sideline that runs afoul with the rules, he should be held accountable.





  4. #28

    Re: The Deflate Gate Thread

    The Ravens secondary couldn't tackle or cover, the Colts couldn't do anything, the Seahawks made a boneheaded play call and the Patriots won. Can we move on now?





  5. #29

    Re: The Deflate Gate Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Silver View Post
    Well, I am glad I am not alone in my line of thinking.
    No, you have brothers my friend.
    To use deflagate only with the colts game is a pats fan mentality. If found guilty, wow, people will be thinking "What If". But in those games where the pats won by a big margin, pat fans will be using that as a no big deal. And the pats have blown away many a team.

    The least fumble issue is interesting, but brady has had years of low interception throwing too. Is there a correlation to deflated balls.





  6. #30
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    Re: The Deflate Gate Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BillickFan View Post
    This isn't about 1 game vs. Indy.

    This speaks to a 7-8 year pattern of behavior since the rules change about visiting teams getting to bring their own footballs to use in the game. If the NFL does the right kind of investigation, and I have no hope that they will b/c it could be a very ugly outcome, this could lead to casting a shadow of doubt about the whole Patriots legacy. If they have been systemically gaining an unfair competitive advantage over nearly a decade of football they should have repercussions that make the Saints bountygate penalty look minor in comparison.

    Think about how 1 fumble per game, 1 sideline catch to gain a crucial 3rd down conversion, could impact a game. How many times could 1 play have changed an outcome?

    This is a HUGE story potentially. It could be the greatest cheating scandal in modern sports history. Yet, it bores people and is damn near impossible to prove without an insider ratting out the scheme. (If it's actually a scheme) The fumble stats are a good place to start. While they don't prove anything, it's tough to come up with a rational, logical explanation. http://linemakers.sportingnews.com/n...nge-game-balls
    Greatest cheating scandal in history? Oh give me a break. Hyperbole much?

    This doesn't sniff the jock of scandals such as Boston College, the Black Sox, Lance Armstrong, Tonya Harding, etc.





  7. #31
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    Re: The Deflate Gate Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Think about it in a court of law setting.

    Fumble statistics are circumstantial at best.

    Definitely noteworthy, which I did note in the first post, but it would be impossible to link fumble statistics with how inflated (or deflated) a ball was. It just can't be factually proven.
    Proof that one should read all the way to the last line. I apologize.

    I did, however, refer to the fumbles statistics as a smoking gun, which last I checked was the classic "circumstantial evidence" reference. And reference Houston Raven who feels it is necessary to lecture from the soap box such elementary concepts and causation and correlation as if he is the only one amongst us in possession of a brain, the circumstatial evidence on the Patriots fumble rates compared to the rest of the league lie too far outside normal to be dissmissed via any of the convenient fallacies the Pats fans have submitted so far, like "it's our superior coaching" or "we just call running plays that are far less likely to result in a fumble." If someone else's shit detector only smells roses here, I can't change that, but it smells like bullshit to me. And whether I can prove it or not, it adds to the malodorous air that lingers over the New England Hypocrites.





  8. #32
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    Re: The Deflate Gate Thread

    I don't think there's any question they intentionally broke the inflation rule. There's enough statistical data there, coupled with the expert opinions of ex NFL players that underinflation makes the ball easier to handle, and the very vociferous claim (from guys like Aikman, Brunell, and others) that the QB absolutely HAD to know about it and HAD to be the one giving the orders, to give rise to that conclusion. Whether it's "proven" to some level of metaphysical certainty sufficient to satisfy the Cartesians out there, I can't say. But on a low evidentiary standard like "preponderance of the evidence" it's certainly within the realm of reason to conclude that it "more than likely" occurred.

    The real question however, is: Even so, just how much of an advantage did it really give them, over time?

    We know the Patriots have great players and are very well coached. We know that at least in one short sample we have, the second half of the AFCCG, Brady and Co played incredibly well with properly inflated footballs. We also know that the Patriots don't throw a lot of long passes downfield -- their passes are mostly just long handoffs. Could it be some of the low fumble rate is due to play calling? Could the changed fumble rates of the ex-Patriots be the outliers? It wasn't just Green-Ellis, it was every Patriot player who played more than a few seasons for the Pats and a comparable time elsewhere, remember. Nevertheless, were any of those players' fumble stats enough to show what advantage the Pats gained? Some say yes, some are not sure.

    On the other hand, another thing worth bearing in mind is: the NFL didn't set up that sting operation on the Pats out of nothing. Like anything else, I would have to think the rumors and complaints had been building up a while for them to actually take an action like that. No chance an in-game event triggered it, or even a back-channel phone call from Harbs (which of course, we know didn't happen ). It will be interesting to see if the NFL publishes all of the facts it had that led it to this investigation in the first place. That to me could be the real treasure trove of information that we the public are missing in deciding what this is really all about.





  9. #33

    Re: The Deflate Gate Thread

    it prob really started after the chiefs loss





  10. #34
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    Re: The Deflate Gate Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackBeak View Post
    Proof that one should read all the way to the last line. I apologize.

    I did, however, refer to the fumbles statistics as a smoking gun, which last I checked was the classic "circumstantial evidence" reference. And reference Houston Raven who feels it is necessary to lecture from the soap box such elementary concepts and causation and correlation as if he is the only one amongst us in possession of a brain, the circumstatial evidence on the Patriots fumble rates compared to the rest of the league lie too far outside normal to be dissmissed via any of the convenient fallacies the Pats fans have submitted so far, like "it's our superior coaching" or "we just call running plays that are far less likely to result in a fumble." If someone else's shit detector only smells roses here, I can't change that, but it smells like bullshit to me. And whether I can prove it or not, it adds to the malodorous air that lingers over the New England Hypocrites.
    Ok, we have a different opinion. Did you need to get all shitty?





  11. #35

    Re: The Deflate Gate Thread

    This is a very important story, yes this is indeed potentially one of the biggest cheating scandals in sports history. There have been hall of fame players who have said that deflating the footballs can give a team a huge advantage. Aside from giving Brady and the receivers an advantage, the Patriots essentially stopped fumbling the football as soon as they gained control of the footballs they use during the game, several years ago.

    It is quite possible, even probable, that the 2015 Super Bowl Champions, would not have even made the Super Bowl, if not for intentionally deflating the footballs to levels that were not regulation. And that they have been doing this for years, to help their W-L record, to get home field advantage during the playoffs, and to artifically inflate Brady's QB rating.





  12. #36

    Re: The Deflate Gate Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick Hiker View Post
    This is a very important story, potentially one of the biggest cheating scandals in sports history. There have been hall of fame players who have said that deflating the footballs can give a team a huge advantage. Aside from giving Brady and the receivers an advantage, the Patriots essentially stopped fumbling the football as soon as they gained control of the footballs they use during the game, several years ago.

    It is quite possible, even probable, that the 2015 Super Bowl Champions, would not have even made the Super Bowl, if not for intentionally deflating the footballs to levels that were not regulation. And that they have been doing this for years, to help their W-L record, to get home field advantage during the playoffs, and to artifically inflate Brady's QB rating.
    :word
    numbers dont lie and those fumbling statistics over the last 5 or so years stick out like a sore thumb





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