OT - American Sniper

[HoustonRaven]

I know you were referencing murder but suicide is killing, killing which they wouldnt do without PTSD.

I was speaking in context of the trial. PTSD does not lead toward violence and suicides resulting from PTSD are very rare.

Id agree the vast majority do internalize, from what ive seen first hand. i dont think with mental disorders everyone fits the same mold, though. Its not a clear science, and without actually seeing this DSM-V you reference, I doubt its definitive. Ive heard of instances of those with PTSD lashing out towards others in "flashbacks", which would contradict that PTSD doesnt ever.

Lashing out and "flashbacks" =/= violence towards others. It is indeed one of the symptoms of PTSD to be aggressive and self-destructive. But violence towards others is simply not a trait of PTSD alone.

http://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/...teria_ptsd.asp

from a personal experience, I could see it happening. my one Vet friend that came home undiagnosed, certainly was more violent and physical with friends and family (with whom he never was prior), to the point of pulling a gun on his own parents and threatening their lives because they werent in the service and dealt with what he had. Thankfully nothing did happen, and since has dealt with his PTSD and transition back to civilian. because of that incident i cant say it never would happen, even if it isnt the most common forms.

The violence comes from something else other than PTSD. The only thing in the PTSD lexicon that fits your thoughts on it is increased aggression but that in of itself doesn't lead to violence against others. PTSD is a rage turned inward, often resulting in withdrawn behavior. Meaning, they lash out as a defense mechanism to some stimuli, then immediately turn inward.

Now, returning to the context of this thread and why I posted such, this guy is claiming PTSD caused him to kill Kyle and his friend. That's going to be a fairly easy defense to beat down since it's well established in the mental health community that committing murder is not a trait of someone suffering PTSD.

[JAB1985]

The violence comes from something else other than PTSD. The only thing in the PTSD lexicon that fits your thoughts on it is increased aggression but that in of itself doesn't lead to violence against others.

I dont see where its saying it cant be. Its listing a bunch of symptoms in a vacuum and not really describing how they could interact with each other or to what extent those symptoms are.

Irritable or aggressive behavior
Self-destructive or reckless behavior
Exaggerated startle response

I could see how those 3 working together at once could easily result in an unexpected action. I think youve agreed in the past that mental health is not an exact science, and knowing that, it cant be definitive either.

as to this case, im not sure of the particulars. they may or may not be able to shoot that down rather easily, but I dont think in reality that its so easy.

[HoustonRaven]

I dont see where its saying it cant be. Its listing a bunch of symptoms in a vacuum and not really describing how they could interact with each other or to what extent those symptoms are.

So because it doesn't list is as a possibility, it is a possibility? By that logic, PTSD can also lead to shoplifting. After all, it's doesn't say it can't be.

Irritable or aggressive behavior
Self-destructive or reckless behavior
Exaggerated startle response

I could see how those 3 working together at once could easily result in an unexpected action. I think youve agreed in the past that mental health is not an exact science, and knowing that, it cant be definitive either.

No, it's not an exact science. But that doesn't mean there are certain aspects of mental health where they have a good grasp on things. There are diagnosis in the DSM-V where violence against others is listed as a symptom of certain mental health issues. So either they simply forgot to add them to the list for PTSD or violence against others is simply not a function of PTSD.

as to this case, im not sure of the particulars. they may or may not be able to shoot that down rather easily, but I dont think in reality that its so easy.

And every legal expert they've trotted out has said otherwise.

You're obviously not going to agree with what metal health experts call PTSD. I am going to stick with their interpretation since they know far more about it than you or I combined.

[JAB1985]

So because it doesn't list is as a possibility, it is a possibility? By that logic, PTSD can also lead to shoplifting. After all, it's doesn't say it can't be.

Its not listed, but i get the feeling theres plenty of actions that these symptoms dont allude to that arent.

No, it's not an exact science. But that doesn't mean there are certain aspects of mental health where they have a good grasp on things. There are diagnosis in the DSM-V where violence against others is listed as a symptom of certain mental health issues. So either they simply forgot to add them to the list for PTSD or violence against others is simply not a function of PTSD.

or its not a major one so they didnt list it. they cant possibly list everything for every known issue.

And every legal expert they've trotted out has said otherwise.

You're obviously not going to agree with what metal health experts call PTSD. I am going to stick with their interpretation since they know far more about it than you or I combined.

I meant its probably easier to dismiss in court than it is in reality, with science.

the last part is fair enough. They may know more than us put together but i think im interpreting what that website is saying differently than you are and regardless disagree but to each their own.

[HoustonRaven]

A lot of stuff came out about the alleged shooter yesterday.

1. He never saw combat as a Marine. When deployed to Iraq, he was in a green zone the entire time. When he was delayed to Haiti, he never left the ship.

2. He's used PTSD to get out of an earlier DUI arrest but he's never been diagnosed.

3. After shooting Kyle and Littlefield, he hopped in Kyle's truck, drove to Taco Bell and ordered a burrito. After finishing the burrito, he drove home and confessed to the crime to his sister, saying "I sold my soul for a truck". Since since the legal standard for insanity in Texas requires a departure from reality, this admission and recognition of what he had done is damaging to the insanity defense.

4. His drug and alcohol abuse extends back long before he ever enlisted in the Marines.

He's toast IMO. He will be on death row by the end of the month.

[JAB1985]

A lot of stuff came out about the alleged shooter yesterday.

1. He never saw combat as a Marine. When deployed to Iraq, he was in a green zone the entire time. When he was delayed to Haiti, he never left the ship.

2. He's used PTSD to get out of an earlier DUI arrest but he's never been diagnosed.

3. After shooting Kyle and Littlefield, he hopped in Kyle's truck, drove to Taco Bell and ordered a burrito. After finishing the burrito, he drove home and confessed to the crime to his sister, saying "I sold my soul for a truck". Since since the legal standard for insanity in Texas requires a departure from reality, this admission and recognition of what he had done is damaging to the insanity defense.

4. His drug and alcohol abuse extends back long before he ever enlisted in the Marines.

He's toast IMO. He will be on death row by the end of the month.

I was unaware of the details of this case, but thats pretty damning, imo.

[HoustonRaven]

More updates ...

When Routh left his sisters house (still using Kyle's truck), she called 911 and reported his confession to the cops. They eventually found him and had him pulled over. He a refused to get out of the truck and claimed to have a weapon. Fearing suicide, they sat and talked to him for 10 minutes in which time he confessed again to killing Kyle and Littlefield -- again, undermining his own defense strategy of insanity.

He sped away from the cops but eventually surrendered after a brief chase. Apparently while in custody, he again confessed to the murder.

[HoustonRaven]

Just saw the movie finally.

Meh. I don't see why it got such praise as a movie. The book was much, much better. Poor editing and a disjointed story. It's almost as if they tried to put too much in the movie.

[AirFlacco]

They definitely tried to put too much in the movie and one thing
they got wrong was him not wearing camo gear on the roof. If you're in
the jungle you look like the bushes and the trees. If you're in the
desert you look like the sand. If you're on a roof you look like the bldg.
They shot at him on the roof.

In sniper school snipers shot at a big steel plate with two officers
standing on both sides of it. They never saw the sniper. When they
asked him to come out he was just a few feet away from them.

I read where he caused the enemy to surrender in one of the towns.
They never saw him.

He had no remorse about killing all those guys because he was protecting
the marines.

And finally, you gotta love JIM HARBs. He said they're showing the
movie at Michigan and if people are offended than so be it.

Typical ballsy move from a HARBs.

[NCRAVEN]

Just saw the movie finally.

Meh. I don't see why it got such praise as a movie. The book was much, much better. Poor editing and a disjointed story. It's almost as if they tried to put too much in the movie.

Pretty much my exact criticism as well.