Substitution Fiasco - Was That The Right Call?!

**MRGRIM** · 11-10-2014, 12:18 PM

For all the chips now stacked against defences, its nice to see they have something going for them.

**JAB1985** · 11-10-2014, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Mista T

Dumbass me! I was at the game and have no idea about when & what. Before I invest the afternoon watching the DVR recording, can someone explain about when this happened?

I did see a strange happening where the ref stepped in to prevent the center from hiking, but was befuddled by it. Was that the play being discussed?

yes... they stopped us from hiking until the play clock was low enough that we were forced to burn a timeout ourselves.

**MRGRIM** · 11-10-2014, 12:23 PM

Happened around 08:25 in the 4th Quarter.

I think the reason behind this, we didn't start our substitutions straight away, just guessing but we started substituting with 20 seconds left on the play clock.

**bst3975** · 11-10-2014, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Rxdoxx

If I'm a D coordinator, then I delay (a non-obvious time but a real delay) a little (maybe 5 sec) then send out 2 D linemen with instructions to trot out there (not being obviously slow but not hurrying either). The D-linemen to come off are not to know that they are to come off until the subs get close (so they don't pass each other 1/2 way).... a smart DC (like ones we have had in the distant past) can force the ref to hold the snap for 20 sec. What I heard Carey saying was telling me that there is no safety valve to prevent D abuse, it is all the O's fault as the rule is now written .... it that is really true, we will see it done again and again....

Actually, it looked worse than that. Looked like the D had some players run on, then back off and other players run on the field, while the refs were holding the ball from being snapped and the clock kept running. The refs looked like they would have allowed the D to keep doing this until the play clock expired.

I have to believe the issue will be raised by the Ravens with the league this week and there will be some kind of immediate clarification. It's too obvious a tactic for Ds to use.

**Ravenswintitle** · 11-10-2014, 12:32 PM

Carey ALWAYS says the refs are correct in their call. Even on the Suggs hit in the Pitt game he was insinuating that players should know when the play is over and not wait for the whistle.

anyway they should have reset the play clock

**B-more Ravor** · 11-10-2014, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by bst3975

Actually, it looked worse than that. Looked like the D had some players run on, then back off and other players run on the field, while the refs were holding the ball from being snapped and the clock kept running. The refs looked like they would have allowed the D to keep doing this until the play clock expired.

I have to believe the issue will be raised by the Ravens with the league this week and there will be some kind of immediate clarification. It's too obvious a tactic for Ds to use.

I agree. It wasn't a question of whether the D had enough time to substitute and the O still have enough time to get the play off, but a question of whether the D had the right to substitute and then basically substitute again. I can't believe that is what the competition committee had in mind and I do also believe the Ravens will raise this issue.

Carey may have been right about the first part, but wasn't really taking into account the pulling back of some players and sending another set back in. That is NOT the responsibility of the Offense, IMO, like Carey was trying to say.

**MRGRIM** · 11-10-2014, 12:36 PM

Interesting, trying to re-watch that drive on GamePass. It shows the punt return at 11.33 and then skips over the whole event to 5.16

:S

**HotInHere** · 11-10-2014, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by MRGRIM

It was a strange situation, however with the no huddle I don't believe you are making any offensive substitutions, therefore keeping the same defensive unit on the field.

No, no-huddle does not mean no substitution.

In fact, this rule came about because PeyPey and Brady were gaming the system. Run a play. Have your two TE's run off the field while two WR's come on. At the same time, your entire offense is moving up to the line without huddling. Obviously, since the defensive substitution happens after the offensive substitution, the offensive subs are in place first. If the QB sees the defense trying to substitute to match up, they just call an alert instead of a play, quick snap the ball as soon as their guys are set, and get a free five yards or catch the defense horribly out of position.

If the defense doesn't substitute, then they are at the line with 25-30 seconds of play clock to work with. They read the mismatch, and call a play.

It was absolute bullshit, and thankfully they created the rule (or enforced an existing rule -- not actually sure which) to stop that nonsense. But I'm not sure they defined the rule well enough to stop a defense from taking advantage of it.

**Raven Werewolf** · 11-10-2014, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by rlh445

I thought more would be made of this but I'm sure there would have been had that lost TO cost us the game.

I didn't understand Mike Carey's explanation at all. I understand that if the offense subs they have to give time for the defense to sub but the entire play clock?! I've never seen that before. Can smarter minds then myself shed some light on this? Was Mike Carey high on malice while delivering that BS sounding explanation? Were those dumbshit announcers actually right about something during the broadcast?

LMAO! Hes never going to live that down at least in our eyes. In regard to the topic I was just as confused as everyone else and his explanation didn't clear it up a damn bit.

**HoustonRaven** · 11-10-2014, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle

Carey ALWAYS says the refs are correct in their call. Even on the Suggs hit in the Pitt game he was insinuating that players should know when the play is over and not wait for the whistle.

anyway they should have reset the play clock

Might want to rewatch the game again because he disagreed with two of the on field calls.

This particular call he was correct and acknowledged its a flaw in the rule.

I think people are getting confused again in what ought to be called v. the refs following the letter of the rule.

**Greg** · 11-10-2014, 12:49 PM

They need to stop the play clock when they stop for defensive subs. The defense should have the right to sub but not burn down the play clock while doing so.

**Ravenswintitle** · 11-10-2014, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by HoustonRaven

Might want to rewatch the game again because he disagreed with two of the on field calls.

This particular call he was correct and acknowledged its a flaw in the rule.

I think people are getting confused again in what ought to be called v. the refs following the letter of the rule.

I do plan to rewatch but I don't ever remember him going against a call on the field. Like I mentioned, he was on Inside the NFL last week trying to argue that players should 'know' when a play is over and not wait until the whistle; even though you're always told to play to the whistle. He lost that argument ;)

As noted above, I understand the D gets an opportunity to sub but not sub and sub again.