Stupid standings question: How many games behind?

**TheRockDoctor** · 10-22-2014, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by BcRaven

Thank you. I can see 3.5 wins divided by 6 games = .583
I thought ties were neutral and didn't count towards winning percentage... Bc

They used to be neutral, but the rules regarding ties were changed in the 70s. There's a nice little summary here.

**Ghoulahoo** · 10-22-2014, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by TheRockDoctor

A tie counts as 1/2 game won and 1/2 game lost. To give an example, check out the current standings on NFL.com. The Bengals are 3-2-1, equivalent to a record of 3.5-2.5. This translates to a winning percentage of 3.5/6 = 0.583. Under the scenario that you give, the Ravens and Bengals records would each to equivalent to 11-5 and the division would come down to tiebreakers.

EDIT: Let's take this a little further to answer the original question. Games behind are calculated as follows:

Games behind = (Team A wins -- Team B wins + Team B losses -- Team A losses) / 2 where A is the leading team and B is the trailing team.

In this case,

GB = (5 -- 3 + 2.5 -- 2) / 2 = 1.25

As ridiculous as it sounds, the Ravens are currently one and one quarter games ahead of the Bengals. If the Bengals were to win next week, they would still technically be one quarter game behind the Ravens despite having the greater winning percentage and being first place in the division. This is a good illustration of why games behind is not used in sports where there are ties -- the ties simply screw everything up. (Though it is possible for the team with the second best winning percentage to lead the team with the best winning percentage in terms of games behind in other sports where ties are not allowed, but it's pretty rare and usually only occurs early in a season).

In your formula for Team B wins, why are you using 3 and not 3.5?

**TheRockDoctor** · 10-22-2014, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Ghoulahoo

In your formula for Team B wins, why are you using 3 and not 3.5?

Because I can't copy numbers apparently. It's been fixed.

**Greg** · 10-22-2014, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by B-more Ravor

This is more accurate then saying it's a 1 game lead. Not sure it's exactly 3/4's, but it's definitely not a full game.

After all, as you mentioned, if we lose to Cinncy on Sunday, they would retake 1st place with a .643 winning percentage, as ours would be .625. So, obviously, we do not have a FULL 1 game lead.

But, it's more than a 1/2 game lead because if this week was our Bye and Cinncy beat whoever on Sunday, they would still be behind us at 4-2-1 (versus our 5-2).

But, as others have said, it will straighten out a little when we hit the Bye.

You can't have a 3/4 game lead. It is either a half or whole game. Each win or loss represents a half game. If we were 5-2 and they were 4-2 we would have a half game lead with the extra win but same amount of losses.

If we count the tie as a half win and half loss the Bengals are 3.5 and 2.5 in wins and losses. We are 5 and 2. The 1.5 more wins and .5 less losses means we have a 2 win/loss advantage which weans we have a 1 game lead.

**Greg** · 10-22-2014, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by BcRaven

I do believe it would be the Bengals. Their winning percentage would be .714 to the Ravens .687 ... Bc

No, this would be considered a tie in games ahead/behind and it would be determined by head to head, then division record, etc.

**MarkS** · 10-22-2014, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Greg

No, this would be considered a tie in games ahead/behind and it would be determined by head to head, then division record, etc.

Nope. BC is right. The NFL determines division winners by win-loss-tie percentage. Games ahead/behind has nothing to do with it. Here's the link:

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures

Directly under "To break a tie within a division":
"If, at the end of the regular season, two or more clubs in the same division finish with identical won-lost-tied percentages..."

If we lose Sunday, they win, and by some miracle the season ends, they win the division.

**TheRockDoctor** · 10-22-2014, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by MarkS

Nope. BC is right. The NFL determines division winners by win-loss-tie percentage. Games ahead/behind has nothing to do with it. Here's the link:

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures

Directly under "To break a tie within a division":
"If, at the end of the regular season, two or more clubs in the same division finish with identical won-lost-tied percentages..."

If we lose Sunday, they win, and by some miracle the season ends, they win the division.

See posts 22 and 25. A tie is considered a half win and half loss in terms of winning percentages. So, a 3-2-1 record is equivalent to 3.5-2.5. If the Bengals were to finish 10-4-2, that would be equivalent to 11-5, and tiebreakers would be used.

**MarkS** · 10-22-2014, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by TheRockDoctor

See posts 22 and 25. A tie is considered a half win and half loss in terms of winning percentages. So, a 3-2-1 record is equivalent to 3.5-2.5. If the Bengals were to finish 10-4-2, that would be equivalent to 11-5, and tiebreakers would be used.

Gotcha. Misunderstood BC's post, thought he was referencing where we stand now, not at the end of the season, so that's what my post refers to.

**Greg** · 10-22-2014, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by MarkS

Gotcha. Misunderstood BC's post, thought he was referencing where we stand now, not at the end of the season, so that's what my post refers to.

Where we stand now is we are one game ahead. Trying to use percentages when we have not played the same number of games is useless. Games ahead/behind gives you an idea of who is in the best position currently.

**Mista T** · 10-22-2014, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by TheRockDoctor

A tie counts as 1/2 game won and 1/2 game lost. To give an example, check out the current standings on NFL.com. The Bengals are 3-2-1, equivalent to a record of 3.5-2.5. This translates to a winning percentage of 3.5/6 = 0.583. Under the scenario that you give, the Ravens and Bengals records would each to equivalent to 11-5 and the division would come down to tiebreakers.

EDIT: Let's take this a little further to answer the original question. Games behind are calculated as follows:

Games behind = (Team A wins -- Team B wins + Team B losses -- Team A losses) / 2 where A is the leading team and B is the trailing team.

In this case,

GB = (5 -- 3.5 + 2.5 -- 2) / 2 = 1

So the Ravens are technically one game ahead of the Bengals.

This is all academic though, as games behind has little meaning in sports where ties occur because the ties tend to through a big monkey wrench into the math.

No... no .... and no again!

Games behind? Forget-about-it! In the end = "games behind" doesn't mean squat. In the NFL, winners are based on winning percentage:

TO BREAK A TIE WITHIN A DIVISION

If, at the end of the regular season, two or more clubs in the same division finish with identical won-lost-tied percentages, the following steps will be taken until a champion is determined.

Two Clubs

Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs).
Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division.
Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games.
Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
Strength of victory.
Strength of schedule.
Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.
Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.
Best net points in common games.
Best net points in all games.
Best net touchdowns in all games.
Coin toss

If the Bengals were to tie again to go 10-4-2,and the Ravens go 11-5 .... Ravens win. Do the math (to many ouzos tonight for me to try). Ignore "games behind".

:greece

**JimZipCode** · 10-22-2014, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by Mista T

No, no and no again!
Games behind? Forget-about-it! In the end = "games behind" doesn't mean squat. In the NFL, winners are based on winning percentage:
If the Bengals were to tie again to go 10-4-2,and the Ravens go 11-5 – Ravens win. Do the math (to many ouzos tonight for me to try). Ignore "games behind".

:greece

Covered above, but to repeat: if the Bengals got another tie and finished the season 10-4-2, and the Ravens 11-5, we would be tied. Not just by "games ahead & games behind": we would also have the exact same winning percentage.

Ravens: 11 wins out of 16 games = 11 / 16 = 0.6875
Bengals: 10 and 2 half wins out of 16 games = (10 + 1/2 + 1/2 ) / 16
= 11 / 16 = 0.6875

Same same. We would go to tiebreakers.

The only case where "games ahead & games behind" would give you a different ranking from what winning percentage would give, is if the teams have not played the same number of games. Like know where the Bengals have had a bye and we have not. By the end of the season when we've played the same number of games, "games ahead & games behind" will give you the exact same thing as winning percentage.

Originally Posted by Haloti92

Same time next week, everyone?

Not if we win. :)

**TheRockDoctor** · 10-22-2014, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Mista T

No... no .... and no again!

Games behind? Forget-about-it! In the end = "games behind" doesn't mean squat. In the NFL, winners are based on winning percentage:

If the Bengals were to tie again to go 10-4-2,and the Ravens go 11-5 .... Ravens win. Do the math (to many ouzos tonight for me to try). Ignore "games behind".

:greece

You need to read my whole post. I'm quite aware that games behind mean nothing, and in fact I say as much. See the last paragraph. I was talking about games behind simply because it was asked in the OP and never resolved.

As has been mentioned numerous times in this thread, both by me and others, ties count in the winning percentage. They are not ignored. See one of my earlier posts in this thread, or Jim's right below your last one.