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  1. #61
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?



    Depends upon on whom you ask.

    If the dead could speak, all the fathers that killed sons and brothers that killed brothers, and uncles that killed nephews would certainly say it was a civil war.

    Three percent of the country died so that makes it a civil war.

    The world accepts this definition:


    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civil+war?s=t

    Even though the south had left the union as you say and was already a country and fired on Ft Sumpter as an independent country, the Feds said no you can't leave. They were powerless to stop the vote except in Maryland as I pointed out above but brought them back in by force and the states never questioned the feds again.

    Also, just because the south called itself a country, doesn't mean it was really a country, not legally since you want to get technical with words.

    NObody in Europe recognized them as such especially England and France which needed their cotton. They sent observers over and had Lee won at Antietam he might have made a case for them to enter the war as allies. Lee also tried to annex Western Maryland but lost at Antietam also called Sharpsburgh. Lee got his teeth kicked in every time he went north at Antietam, Sharpesburgh, Fredrickburgh and Gettysburgh. European countries didn't try to run the northern block cade of the south. Richmond ran out of food, women in Richmond couldn't even sew clothes and many soldiers at Gettysburgh didn't have shoes. In fact, some came down from the mountains to get supplies and shoes and ran into union soldiers at Gettysburgh and started firing and that's how the battle got started. It was the worse possible place for the south to fight because the north had high ground like at the Little Roundtop. As another movie got it right, Longstreet wanted to move back to defensive positions on more favorable ground but Lee said the enemy is there. They won big victories in Virginia in defensive positions. Lee should have listened to him.

    ______________________________
    no major nation officially recognized the government of the CSA. Britain did not dare support the CSA because
    (1) they did not wish to risk war against USA
    (2) A great number of the UK populace was against slavery

    Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation ended all chance of foreign recognition as the war entered a higher plane than a foreign government wanted to enter
    ____________________________



    No one outside saw the south as a legal country so that negates your definition above if you want to get technical. Only in your own minds. So it goes back to
    the regional/political definition above.

    And you were going to win the war in a month. Rhett was right.


    Last edited by AirFlacco; 06-15-2014 at 12:23 AM.
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  2. #62

    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Nobody with common sense thought we'd win the war in a month. The only thing we had going for us was the fact we were fighting a defensive war. Those take a long time to win.

    As has already been shown, the South was re-admitted to the Union and treated like a conquered territory. Ergo we were a separate country. I'll take the word of a history professor over yours, no offense.
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  3. #63
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    They also believed God was on their side even though the North was trying to end something evil like slavery but even the Germans thought God was on their side in WW2 and their belt buckles had it in writing.

    Again your'e wrong. Defensive positions was the best and really the only way the South could win since they were out-numbered. When they went on the offensive at Gettysburgh they met the same fate as the union Army at Bull Run. Southern soldiers were called Killer Angels and knew how to draw a line and kill anyone crossing it but like Ashley said they kept coming and coming and coming. They won early but not often. Lee did get aggressive and made the boldest move and greatest victory of the war at Chancellorsville and won because of it with Jackson's maneuvering to attack Hooker's flank and he almost caught Hooker with his pants down.
    He was with some prostitutes and came close to being captured. Ran out w/o his pants. His own soldiers laughed their asses off and called them Hooker's girls which later were universally called Hookers. Nice legacy to leave on the world.

    However, the battle was costly because Jackson was killed by his own men who didn't see him. He always ventured too far ahead of his lines and was warned by Lee not to do it. He did it in the dark and he and his aids were killed by mistake riding fast towards his own lines.

    http://www.civilwar.org/battlefields...lorsville.html



    There's plenty of southern revisionist professsors and authors many of whom are wrong saying the war wasn't over this or that but people did say they'd win the war in a month. It was Lee who told them the war would last at least 4 years. Even at the end he disobeyed a direct order from Davis not to surrender. He wanted to break the army into bands and fight like they did at the beginning of the Revolutionary War but Lee said they will hunt you down and destroy you. Grant hunted Lee down and cornered him.



    Afterwards, they blamed it on the politicians.
    You poached quotes from Lincoln not knowing where they came from or why they were made. I did and pointed to your taking them out of context and the reasons for his making them.

    Again, the definition I posted is accepted by the world, not yours or your revisionists but dream on and make excuses.


    Conquered territory is not a conquered state. It's like your son runs away from home and you bring him back. States like Arizona and New Mexico were territories before they became states.
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 06-15-2014 at 02:40 PM.
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  4. #64

    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Can you read? I said that fighting a defensive battle was the only thing we had going for us.

    As for reasons, there were a number of them for the War of Northern Aggression. States rights, money, slavery, etc... None of which have any bearing on my point. The moment the Senate voted to allow the southern states to rejoin the Union, it ceased to be a civil war. I don't care what people believe. I don't care what other countries at the time thought. According to the United States government we had seceded, and had done so before the fighting started.

    And finally for your claim that I poached quotes from Lincoln. No, I knew exactly where they came from and their context. Like I previously explained, there is no context for racism. Lincoln thought blacks were inferior to whites which means he was a racist.
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  5. #65
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by darb72 View Post
    And finally for your claim that I poached quotes from Lincoln. No, I knew exactly where they came from and their context. Like I previously explained, there is no context for racism. Lincoln thought blacks were inferior to whites which means he was a racist.
    You're still not providing full context here.

    You obvious have strong, emotion feelings and in afraid they're causing your lack of context. For one, I know of no historian who would argue the opposite (that Lincoln wasn't a racist). Second, everyone back then was a racist of some sort if use your definition. Even the most hardcore abolitionist still didn't want to see black suffrage or civil rights.

    So to fault Lincoln for not being devoid of racist tendencies is a straw man argument. He was ahead if his time in so much as he got the ball rolling in a time when nobody of substantial influence was saying the things he did once elected.

    That's a testament to just how entrenched slavery and racism was in our culture back then.
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  6. #66
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Texas does not have a legal right to secede.
    I gave two reasons they have the right. You gave none. I don't think your assertion holds water at all. Do you have something compelling to add?




  7. #67

    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    You're still not providing full context here.

    You obvious have strong, emotion feelings and in afraid they're causing your lack of context. For one, I know of no historian who would argue the opposite (that Lincoln wasn't a racist). Second, everyone back then was a racist of some sort if use your definition. Even the most hardcore abolitionist still didn't want to see black suffrage or civil rights.

    So to fault Lincoln for not being devoid of racist tendencies is a straw man argument. He was ahead if his time in so much as he got the ball rolling in a time when nobody of substantial influence was saying the things he did once elected.

    That's a testament to just how entrenched slavery and racism was in our culture back then.
    The argument of context is a double-edged sword. Lee thought slavery was a necessary evil and that God would end slavery when the time was right. In the context you and Trap keep referring to, that put him on the more liberal side of thought.

    "There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil." Lee; 1856

    You'll notice how I'm not arguing that Lee wasn't a racist. Lee was a racist. Anybody who thinks one race is better than another is a racist.
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  8. #68
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by darb72 View Post
    Can you read? I said that fighting a defensive battle was the only thing we had going for us.

    As for reasons, there were a number of them for the War of Northern Aggression. States rights, money, slavery, etc... None of which have any bearing on my point. The moment the Senate voted to allow the southern states to rejoin the Union, it ceased to be a civil war. I don't care what people believe. I don't care what other countries at the time thought.

    Sour grapes because you lost. France and England could have helped them win the war but it wasn't feasible.

    According to the United States government we had seceded, and had done so before the fighting started.

    And finally for your claim that I poached quotes from Lincoln. No, I knew exactly where they came from and their context. Like I previously explained, there is no context for racism. Lincoln thought blacks were inferior to whites which means he was a racist.
    Not when he pushed thru the 13th Amendment. It was a far greater racist and evil man who killed him for it.
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  9. #69
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by darb72 View Post
    Can you read? I said that fighting a defensive battle was the only thing we had going for us.

    As for reasons, there were a number of them for the War of Northern Aggression. States rights, money, slavery, etc... None of which have any bearing on my point. The moment the Senate voted to allow the southern states to rejoin the Union, it ceased to be a civil war. I don't care what people believe. I don't care what other countries at the time thought.

    Sour grapes because you lost. It would have been a big deal had they helped. They could have helped you win but nobody recognized the legality of your nation. As HR said, you're too emotional over it.

    According to the United States government we had seceded, and had done so before the fighting started.

    And finally for your claim that I poached quotes from Lincoln. No, I knew exactly where they came from and their context. Like I previously explained, there is no context for racism. Lincoln thought blacks were inferior to whites which means he was a racist.
    Not when he gave them the right to vote and pushed the 13th amendment thru. He didn't have to do it then. It was a far greater racist with far more hatred who killed him. His family owned slaves right up the road from here. Houses in that neighborhood are still flying the Confederate flag.
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  10. #70
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    Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    I gave two reasons they have the right. You gave none. I don't think your assertion holds water at all. Do you have something compelling to add?
    You can give any reason you'd like. They're all based off of an internet rumor gone viral with misinterpretation.

    But since you insist on me doing the research for you, here's a good break down on why Texas cannot legally secede. Texas can only break itself up into smaller states:

    http://ideas.time.com/2012/11/19/can...n-not-legally/

    http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/...as-cant-secede

    And the Supreme Court case that solidified it ....

    http://www.oyez.org/cases/1851-1900/1868/1868_0

    And by the way, you gave two reasons why two different states may have a legal right secede. You mentioned nothing about Texas. Your attempts to move the debate goalposts are obvious.
    Last edited by HoustonRaven; 06-16-2014 at 08:57 AM.
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  11. #71
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    The question I have, why would any state enter into a union it could not leave?

    Not just Texas, but any state. Makes no sense to me.
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  12. #72
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    The question I have, why would any state enter into a union it could not leave?

    Not just Texas, but any state. Makes no sense to me.
    That was the condition upon returning to the union after the civil war. States entering the union had to agree to all the provisions in the Constitution with no caveats.

    The south was in total ruin. They had no choice or leverage.
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