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  1. #76
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?



    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Where does the Constitution not allow secession?

    And you are correct, caveats were not allowed thus NY and VA ratifying with the right to secede and having it approved by Congress means the right to secede is there. If not NY and VA are not actually in the union.
    The Constitution is also silent on crossing state lines to diddle a 6 year old boy, beating up a federal officer, having sex with a goat on federal land etc.

    Go ahead and get caught doing those things and see how far the 10th Amendment argument gets you.

    Sorry, edited wrong post, my edit removed.
    Last edited by Greg; 06-16-2014 at 09:36 PM.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  2. #77
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    The Constitution is also silent on crossing state lines to diddle a 6 year old boy, beating up a federal officer, having sex with a goat on federal land etc.
    No it is not. The federal government has authority to prosecute crimes committed crossing state lines, prosecuting for offenses against its agents, or crimes committed on federal lands. This IS in the Constitution.

    By the way, none of this address the NY and VA ratification process.




  3. #78
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    I disagree with Scalia. There is nothing that prevents it and two states ratified it with the proviso, which means AS ORIGINALLY UNDERSTOOD AND RATIFIED secession was allowed. Frankly, as it was originally understood and ratified beats any interpretation now, as this was what they believed they were agreeing to, which is what is important.




  4. #79

    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    It was a far greater racist with far more hatred who killed him.
    Thank you for finally admitting Lincoln was a racist. Not really sure how one is better or worse at being a racist, but since it's you I'll take the small concession.
    "A moron, a rapist, and a Pittsburgh Steeler walk into a bar. He sits down and says, Hi Im Ben may I have a drink please?
    ProFootballMock




  5. #80
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    By today's standards he probably was a racist but not by 1850 standards. Again, you keep taking things out of context as HR keeps saying. You can't compare the times. It's like comparing Unitas to Montana - two great QBs of two different eras.

    I recognized them above and said he sent former slaves to Africa where they wanted to go. Actually, England did the same thing after buying land and sending their former slaves there but I also said he wasn't nearly as bad as Lee's and Booth's who actually owned slaves and caused a lot of human suffering. The average age for slaves in the south was something like 30, I think, w/o looking it up.

    As I keep saying, most of the country felt that way before the Civil War but Lincoln changed and gave them the right to vote when he didn't have to. That's what got him killed in the end. Only he could have pushed thru the 13th amendment.

    You did say Lincoln was different during his presidency than before so that's a small concession I'll accept from you.


    I also said above he was no where near the racist that you painted him out to be at the top of this discussion.
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 06-17-2014 at 08:48 AM.




  6. #81
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    I disagree with Scalia. There is nothing that prevents it and two states ratified it with the proviso, which means AS ORIGINALLY UNDERSTOOD AND RATIFIED secession was allowed. Frankly, as it was originally understood and ratified beats any interpretation now, as this was what they believed they were agreeing to, which is what is important.
    Except the Civil War actually did happen, thus those statements and agreements back in the colonial times that allowed states to opt out of the new union were rendered null and void.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  7. #82
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Except the Civil War actually did happen, thus those statements and agreements back in the colonial times that allowed states to opt out of the new union were rendered null and void.
    Well then, why take issue when the other parts are rendered null and void? Who gives a crap about the first or second, the tenth is toilet paper so why not use the other parts as well?

    The War Between the States should not have happened, the south had the right to secede,




  8. #83
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Even General Sherman said the South had the right to secede. He just doubted the wisdom of it given the numbers and resources of the Union. It was a lost cause.

    He was the same guy who said just kill the rest of the indians and be done with them.




  9. #84
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Well then, why take issue when the other parts are rendered null and void? Who gives a crap about the first or second, the tenth is toilet paper so why not use the other parts as well?

    The War Between the States should not have happened, the south had the right to secede,
    That's nothing but hyperbole based off your inaccurate inference to the 10th Amendments use in the secession argument.

    It's a straw man position.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  10. #85
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    That's nothing but hyperbole based off your inaccurate inference to the 10th Amendments use in the secession argument.

    It's a straw man position.
    How is my 10th amendment statement inaccurate? It says the powers not delegated to the federal government are reserved for the states or people. It does allow the tangents you tried to claim it didn't. The federal government does not have delegated to it the right to force states to remain in the union, unless you can find it.

    And again, not once have you addressed VA and NY, both BARELY ratifying and only doing so because they required the Constitution to allow the right to secede.

    You seem to think that might makes right and the Constitution is to be determined by armed conflict and not legal reasoning; otherwise why make the statement:
    Except the Civil War actually did happen, thus those statements and agreements back in the colonial times that allowed states to opt out of the new union were rendered null and void.




  11. #86
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Va ratified only after Madison made certain promises. They weren't the only states that barely ratified.

    Penn, NJ, Georgia and Conn barely signed as well and even then debate raged by Americans whether it should be ratified at all.

    http://www.lpusd.k12.ca.us/rm1/onlin...estav/1-3c.htm




  12. #87
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    IMO every state has the "right" to secede. Or at the least try to secede. But once you join the Union, the Federal government will not allow you to secede. Either through the courts or military force.

    I recall part of the issue with the Civil War was that if the Federal government allowed the South to leave the Union, it would set a precedent. States would leave and join the Union for the smallest of issues. The Federal government didn't want North America to become like Europe. With countries boundaries constantly changing. So among the other issues, slavery, economics...sending a message to the other states that succession would not become an easy out just because we disagree. Part of Manifest Destiny was that this continent belong to us (1 Nation) by divine decreed. Again breaking away from the Old World mentality.

    That just how I see it.




  13. #88
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    IMO every state has the "right" to secede. Or at the least try to secede. But once you join the Union, the Federal government will not allow you to secede. Either through the courts or military force.
    First off, you can only secede once you join, so apparently you don't think they have the right to secede. Or you believe the federal government will, like it has, violate the Constitution to force states to remain.

    States would leave and join the Union for the smallest of issues.
    Nonsense, to join the other states must approve by a super majority. States wouldn't be coming and going through a revolving door.

    European borders were constantly changing due to wars, so to stop that here we had a war? Changing borders had nothing to do with it. We changed borders continually by admitting states, why is it a big deal to change them for a state leaving?




  14. #89
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    First off, you can only secede once you join, so apparently you don't think they have the right to secede. Or you believe the federal government will, like it has, violate the Constitution to force states to remain.
    I meant if a state wanted to secede, the Federal government will try everything, legal or not, to stop said state from seceding.



    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Nonsense, to join the other states must approve by a super majority. States wouldn't be coming and going through a revolving door.

    European borders were constantly changing due to wars, so to stop that here we had a war? Changing borders had nothing to do with it. We changed borders continually by admitting states, why is it a big deal to change them for a state leaving?
    Calm down. I said it's just how I see. One man's slightly uninformed opinion. I didn't state it as fact.




  15. #90
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    First off, you can only secede once you join, so apparently you don't think they have the right to secede. Or you believe the federal government will, like it has, violate the Constitution to force states to remain.



    Nonsense, to join the other states must approve by a super majority. States wouldn't be coming and going through a revolving door.

    European borders were constantly changing due to wars, so to stop that here we had a war? Changing borders had nothing to do with it. We changed borders continually by admitting states, why is it a big deal to change them for a state leaving?
    You repeating the same thing over again doesn't make it any closer to truth, especially given the hypocritical request of asking me for back up and providing none for your position.

    There's exactly two ways laws are made in this country -- statute and case law (i.e. common law). The secession question was solved via case law when the south surrendered at Appomattox. Period. It's now precedent whether you like it or not. The only way now for secession to be legal would be to write statute overriding common law.

    The absence of any secession language in the Constitution is meaningless. I know folks on my side of the political fence love to misinterpret this one for everything and nothing. It's a textualists position, one not shared by an overwhelming majority of the most conservative legal scholars and one not based in the Framers intent. There's a laundry list of things left out of the text of the Constitution. That doesn't mean it's an automatic default to the states for both opportunity or for statute.

    State law regarding secession became meaningless after the ratification of the Supremacy Clause. Read Federalist 44 (since you asked). It shows the intent that the 10th Amendment was never designed as a states rights absolute and talks about the need for the Federal Government to have supreme power over the states. Madison states "having the federal government subservient to various state constitutions would be an inversion of the principles of government, comparing it to having the brain subservient to limbs of the body".

    For example, a state cannot legally sue it's way out of the union. Who does the state sue in that case? The US Government? Well, it can't and that language is indeed in the Constitution. You can't sue the federal government without it's permission and it's never been granted. Not once.

    Militarily? Yeah good luck with that one.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




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