John Harbaugh

**Raveninwoodlawn** · 04-21-2014, 12:35 PM

I don't understand why people want to separate coaches from their players.

If your players stink, the coach is going to stink. If he has great players, he is going to win...and in particularly, a QB. There is no coincidence that no coach has won multiple Super Bowls with different QB's other than Gibbs.

There is no great or good coach that didn't have great or good players who were team leaders.

**JimZipCode** · 04-21-2014, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Ravenstatsman

Despite my gripes, I'm still open to the idea that Harbaugh is a good coach.

Imagine what the Ravens could have done if they'd had a GOOD coach the past ~6 years! They might have made the playoffs 4 or 5 times, advanced to the conference title game a couple of times, maybe even made the Super Bowl! That would have been awesome.

**Captain Silver** · 04-21-2014, 01:35 PM

I spent a better part of four years on John Harbaugh, pointing out his flaws, which all coaches and people have. In the end, John proved me wrong and I let everyone on here and him know it.

That being said, he won a Super Bowl. Do I think Ray Lewis had a large hand in why they won? Of course! I think the team simply played better and harder when he was around, no doubt.

Yet, how many Super Bowls does Bill Walsh win without Joe Montana? How many Super Bowls does Bill Belicheck win without Tom Brady? So it is a push.

What is interesting to me, with Kubiak on board and John's experience the last six years, where does he go from here? We have a franchise QB and on paper look nice all over the team and have in my opinion, the best general manager in the NFL. It is a good time to be a Raven's fan and a great time to be John Harbaugh as he can now really cement a legacy as not just a good coach, but a great coach.

I argue, what happens, hypothetically were John to win two more Super Bowls with this team before he hung it up? You would have to argue him among the great coaches of all time. Just a thought.

**alienrace** · 04-21-2014, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Sarcasticfury

Here's what I have to say to the "Harbs' success came from having Ray" 1.Harbs had Ray on the downside of his career, not his prime. 2. Ted Marchibroda had Ray Lewis for 3 years, the Ravens were getting arrested, the defense was garbage, and the Ravens didn't even go 8-8. Brian Billick had Ray from 1999-2007 and made the playoffs 4 times in that 9 season span winning 5 times (4 in one year), and putting up some awful offenses. Harbs benefited from having Ray around, but Harbs' success didn't completely come from Ray, After all I don't think Ray would fix one of the worst Ravens offenses ever. God knows he could only do so much for Billick.

This. 1000x This.

**Sarcasticfury** · 04-21-2014, 01:50 PM

We like to complain here about Pees a lot, and while his defenses weren't as good as Rex's or Paganos' they weren't terrible barring 2012(in which most of the starters were less than 100%, had missed extensive time, and were aged) this year his defenses kept the team in games for extended periods of time, such as Pittsburgh, Green Bay, Minnesota, Buffalo,and Chicago. Point being Pees won't get fired until the situation arises where it is necessary.

**HoustonRaven** · 04-21-2014, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn

I don't understand why people want to separate coaches from their players.

If your players stink, the coach is going to stink. If he has great players, he is going to win...and in particularly, a QB. There is no coincidence that no coach has won multiple Super Bowls with different QB's other than Gibbs.

There is no great or good coach that didn't have great or good players who were team leaders.

This.

And yet we hear many posters here pile on coaches like Belichick, saying "he'd be nothing" without Brady.

Well no shit, Sherlock. That's no kind of thoughtful analysis nor does it prove any point.

**Ravenstatsman** · 04-21-2014, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Captain Silver

I argue, what happens, hypothetically were John to win two more Super Bowls with this team before he hung it up? You would have to argue him among the great coaches of all time. Just a thought.

And what if we go 8-8 and 7-9 the next few years? Then Harbaugh will be revealed to have been a mediocre coach who found himself in a great situation for a number of years before he got exposed.

I hope he is a great coach, but I'm open to the possibility that he isn't.

**Ravenstatsman** · 04-21-2014, 03:03 PM

Just for fun, here are the regular season DVOA rankings from Football Outsiders of the Ravens in the Harbaugh era.

2008: 27.6%, 2nd
2009: 29.1%, 1st
2010: 21.7%, 5th
2011: 14.5%, 7th
2012: 9.8%, 8th
2013: -6.7, 23rd

I'm no statistician, but that's not a good trend. 5 consecutive years where our per-play efficiency has declined. I hope that the Ravens rebound but it's also possible we've reached the end of an era. Look at the Steelers, they were good every year like us until a couple years ago.

**Raveninwoodlawn** · 04-21-2014, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Ravenstatsman

Just for fun, here are the regular season DVOA rankings from Football Outsiders of the Ravens in the Harbaugh era.

2008: 27.6%, 2nd
2009: 29.1%, 1st
2010: 21.7%, 5th
2011: 14.5%, 7th
2012: 9.8%, 8th
2013: -6.7, 23rd

I'm no statistician, but that's not a good trend. 5 consecutive years where our per-play efficiency has declined. I hope that the Ravens rebound but it's also possible we've reached the end of an era. Look at the Steelers, they were good every year like us until a couple years ago.

Question...do you want to win, or do you just want to win the way you want to win?

I personally don't give a damn about DVA, OVA or whatever...we won a freaking Super Bowl 2 years ago, and should have at least been in one 3 years ago with those declining numbers.

Meanwhile, with all those great defensive years, we never approached the success we've had the last 6 years other than one year, 2000. From 1999-2007, we had all those years of being in the top 2 in dominating defenses...yet only made one AFC Championship and 4 playoff seasons.

We've blown that away in just the last six years...winning 10+ games 4 out of those 6 years, 5 years in the playoffs, 3 trips to the AFC Championship game and a Super Bowl win.

Yet people want to complain just because the defense isn't as good (BTW, I'd argue that the talent not being as good has helped to lead to the decline just as much as coaching)...even as we win playoff games.

I don't get it. Harbaugh isn't perfect by any stretch...and I'm not saying he should be considered the top coach in the league by any stretch, but the guy is a good coach by any measurable and definitely is by the most important one...wins.

**JimZipCode** · 04-21-2014, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Captain Silver

I argue, what happens, hypothetically were John to win two more Super Bowls with this team before he hung it up? You would have to argue him among the great coaches of all time. Just a thought.

Doesn't even need that much. Five more years like Harbaugh's first five, and he's in the Hall of Fame as a coach. Not on the bubble, pretty much automatically. That's why I don't get the overall blasting of Harbaugh's: particularly the garbage that Preston writes. Harbaugh has been on a Hall of Fame trajectory as a coach. So how does it make sense to belittle him?

That said: I don't think it's likely that Harbaugh actually WILL have as much success in the next 5 years as in his first. The 2008-12 Ravens were incredibly successful. We've lost some Hall-of-Famers off our D from that period to this, and that has to make a difference. But I still think we'll be a good team, with multiple playoff appearances.

**HotInHere** · 04-21-2014, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ravenstatsman

And what if we go 8-8 and 7-9 the next few years? Then Harbaugh will be revealed to have been a mediocre coach who found himself in a great situation for a number of years before he got exposed.

I hope he is a great coach, but I'm open to the possibility that he isn't.

Why would someone suggest that his success over the past six years has just been due to him having lucked into a great stable of players, but then NOT assume that some 8-8 and 7-9 years were due to having a mediocre stable of players? Am I understanding this right? If you win, the HC has nothing to do with it, but if you lose, it's all his fault?

Belichick has had several years of 5 and 6 wins. Landry had 9 season of .500 or below. Parcells had 6. And given that it's harder than ever now to keep core players together for long periods, I truly can't imagine this ridiculous standard.

If he has two more years as you describe, then he will ONLY have a .600 win percentage, ONLY have made the playoffs in five of eight years, and ONLY have one Super Bowl ring. That will still make him one of the best coaches in the league.

**GaTechRavens** · 04-21-2014, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ronan

Can I second this? I really miss Ryan/Pags.

Correction: You really miss the talent we had with Ryan/Pags. Their defenses most certainly regress if you give them the 2012/2013 roster.

Fun Fact: The best example of a Ravens defense playing above its talent level comes from the Greg Mattison era.