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  1. #31
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    Re: Ravens, Pats and Jets are Interested in Michael Sam



    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    If we go by production hes completely comparable to Upshaw.

    Sam
    48 T 19.0 TFL 11.5 S final season

    Upshaw
    52 t 18.0 tfl 9.5 s final season

    there was talk of Upshaw being a top 15 pick at one point because of those stats, were talking about Sam as a late rounder or UDFA. doesnt quite add up to me (drafts were completely different as well). Hes clearly not the athlete that Upshaw is, but that motor has gotten similar production in the same conference. Just seems to be a bigger gap between those two than the difference in athletic ability (neither are quick twitch). Frankly I think Upshaw should have been a lower pick so maybe thats the bigger issue i have than Sam being considered so much later. Either way, I dont see us needing another stiff LB/DE project with even less of a ceiling.
    There is no way Sam could play at the level that Upshaw plays at in the NFL. Upshaw may not be quite the pass rusher, but he's a hell of an edge defender.

    Sam doesn't really have a position in the NFL. I'm not saying he can't ever be a good NFL player, but he's not a highly rated prospect. I would take a flyer on him as a late round pick.




  2. #32

    Re: Ravens, Pats and Jets are Interested in Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    I agree that Upshaw was overvalued but there is a big difference between a player who was taken at the top of the 2nd round who now looks more like a later 2nd or early 3rd round player and a player who doesn't look like he could start on defense in the NFL.

    Upshaw is still a starter. That's what you are looking for when you draft a player in round 2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paintballguy View Post
    There is no way Sam could play at the level that Upshaw plays at in the NFL. Upshaw may not be quite the pass rusher, but he's a hell of an edge defender.

    Sam doesn't really have a position in the NFL. I'm not saying he can't ever be a good NFL player, but he's not a highly rated prospect. I would take a flyer on him as a late round pick.
    Upshaw isnt a starter but My point being you have 2 guys that have similar production. Even their 40 times are similar with their prodays being 4.73 and 4.76. Theres a lot to compare there which to me means Upshaw isnt a 2nd rounder. Hes a 4th like Simon or beyond.

    I do agree that Upshaw is better against the run. The question is why would that make him 5 rounds better vs Sam. 2 down LBs arent coveted. Neither are quick twitch, both are limited as pass rushers, both are undersized. Its just intriguing to me that we speak so negatively about Sam when Upshaw had a lot of the same issues coming out but was heralded as a great prospect, which imo, he never really was.

    I do think Sam has a position in the NFL just not on our team.
    -JAB




  3. #33
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    Re: Ravens, Pats and Jets are Interested in Michael Sam

    The thing about Upshaw is that regardless of his draft position we were and still are hoping that he could fill Jarrett Johnson's shoes. And so far he hasn't. He's okay....but he didn't progress from his decent rookie season to last year. He didn't improve as a run defender where he is good but not great, certainly not as good as JJ, and he is still awful as a pass rusher. Unfortunately he's had real problems staying in shape too. The year coming up is really important for Upshaw's future in the NFL as he's got to show something more than he has. If he doesn't step up the Ravens will be thinking OLB as a top priority the next year. Suggs and Doom are already on the wrong side of 30 as it is. The position needs to be addressed.

    With Michael Sam, we can't think of him as a possible Upshaw replacement cause he'd need a year or two to develop before that would be a possibility. In the meantime he'd be a special team player and a situational pass rusher when/if Doom and/or Suggs are injured. As such he'd be in competition with Simon and Hamilton to make the roster. Sam could beat out the other two if his one pass rush move proves effective and the team thinks it could teach him. He'd definitely have a couple of great mentors in Doom and Suggs.

    As such, yeah, a late round pick is justified. OLB is now in a similar position as ILB was in Ray Lewis' last couple of years: needing new blood in the long run but the situation is not dire enough that the team needs to invest in a high round draft pick-yet. At ILB then the team picked up several low round picks and UDFA's in hopes of finding a steal. Eventually they did have to use a 2nd rounder last year on Brown. OLB is proceeding the same: we are in the low round/UDFA stage: Hamilton, Simon, possibly Sam and if not probably someone else. Let's hope we get lucky with one of these flyers.
    Last edited by ursula; 04-17-2014 at 11:14 AM.




  4. #34
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    Re: Ravens, Pats and Jets are Interested in Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by ursula View Post
    As such, yeah, a late round pick is justified. OLB is now in a similar position as ILB was in Ray Lewis' last couple of years: needing new blood in the long run but the situation is not dire enough that the team needs to invest in a high round draft pick-yet.
    I would rather see the Ravens use the late round pick to obtain another CB. There just aren't that many on the roster, especially compared to fringe OLBs. Maybe not Sam, but a guy like him is probably available after the draft. Historically, the Ravens have done well with UDFA linebackers.




  5. #35
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    Re: Ravens, Pats and Jets are Interested in Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by alien bird View Post
    I would rather see the Ravens use the late round pick to obtain another CB. There just aren't that many on the roster, especially compared to fringe OLBs. Maybe not Sam, but a guy like him is probably available after the draft. Historically, the Ravens have done well with UDFA linebackers.
    Definitely we need to draft a CB. In my mind said CB is penciled in to be drafted by the end of the 4th round even. But, yeah, if we don't have a CB drafted yet, then that's a priority over OLB for the 5th and 6th rounds plus look at a UDFA CB too.




  6. #36
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    Re: Ravens, Pats and Jets are Interested in Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by alien bird View Post
    I would rather see the Ravens use the late round pick to obtain another CB. There just aren't that many on the roster, especially compared to fringe OLBs. Maybe not Sam, but a guy like him is probably available after the draft. Historically, the Ravens have done well with UDFA linebackers.
    Good points across the board.

    I'll add the following thoughts.

    - I think Sam will be drafted in the mid-5th round range, although he might slip into the late 5th/early 6th round. I think the odds of him going undrafted are slim.

    -The only pick where I'd feel good about the Ravens drafting Sam is with that supp-6th pick. When I look at the depth of this draft, I see some very good players as candidates for our late 5th supplemental pick. I see players who can come in right away and contribute.

    - Good call on the idea of a CB, Alien. I have watched a number of mock drafts and I'm seeing cornerbacks projected as going in the 5th and 6th rounds who I feel would be late 2nd through early 4th round quality in past drafts. Even if our 5th/6th round supplemental pick was a "double dip" cornerback (essentially starting off as our #6 corner) I still think that player provides more short and long term value over someone like Sam, who is likely going to offer the Ravens no value from scrimmage at any point in the near future. If you look at the compilation of OLBs who would theoretically be ahead of Sam on the depth chart (Suggs, Doom, Simon, Upshaw, Hamilton), they are all players who are highly likely to be here for 2014 and 2015. Right now, we only have 3 cornerbacks on our roster who have really ever played from scrimmage in a real NFL game. It's a heavier priority position for us.

    - I'd much rather see the Ravens look at a 3-4 DE than a 3-4 OLB like Sam projects to be. Tuitt in the 2nd round (doubtful he makes it there) or in the late 1st/early 2nd round (if we trade back) would be an amazing fit. Also, I'm in love with Kareem Martin out of UNC as a target for our 3rd round pick. Both are legit NFL DEs who can contribute from day one. The only true 3-4 DE that we have on our roster right now that is sure to be back in 2015 is Kapron Lewis-Moore, who has never played a down in the NFL and is 15 months removed from a torn ACL. I just see Sam as a low-value pick. If the Ravens are truly look at this draft as a way to add a young pass rusher, I'd rather them look at DE versus OLB, and I'd rather them look at filling that need in rounds 1-3 where you are going to get a player who is much more of a certainty.




  7. #37

    Re: Ravens, Pats and Jets are Interested in Michael Sam

    I'd like to see the Ravens address DE/OLB in the mid rounds. Someone like Will Clarke from WVU (more DE than OLB but could play some edge LB). I think this is something that will become a glaring hole in a couple of years and could use some pre-emptive addressing . That would make me have little interest in Sam.




  8. #38
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    Re: Ravens, Pats and Jets are Interested in Michael Sam

    I'd be more than glad to welcome him and see what hes got as a UDFA but I sure as hell dont want to see us have to spend a pick for him. Too much other and better value can be had where he is projected to go.
    They hate us..... but they want to BE us. (.... or at least poach all our players/coaches/FO people!)




  9. #39
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    Re: Ravens, Pats and Jets are Interested in Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by alienrace View Post
    If this guy hadn't "come out", nobody would be talking about him.

    Pass.
    ^^This^^

    I'm sure it took a lot of guts for Sam to do what he did.. But the timing was pretty obvious, especially when he started selling rainbow t-shirts and crap around the time of the combine.

    I'm wondering if the league will be branded the Hater League if he doesn't get drafted....




  10. #40
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    Re: Ravens, Pats and Jets are Interested in Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward St.Grey View Post
    In my humble opinion I'd rather deal with that media attention than the media circus of a player knocking his fiance out in a casino but that's just me. If anything that would bring more attention but from a PR standpoint it would deflect the Rice situation a bit and it's been noted that he will more than likely be drafted by a team with a good locker room that knows how to handle the press.
    For the most part, I don't get what is supposed to be so bad about "media attention." It's not like this is either a) Jackie Robinson in 1947 levels of controversy or, b) something like the Tebow circus. You'll have media there covering you and talking about him sure, because it' a landmark, but it's going to be overwhelmingly positive coverage and there's no obvious reason it should be a problem for anyone. Players have to talk to the media anyway, who cares if they're getting questions about the late round draft pick instead of a tweaked muscle or something?




  11. #41
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    Re: Ravens, Pats and Jets are Interested in Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Brien Jackson View Post
    For the most part, I don't get what is supposed to be so bad about "media attention." It's not like this is either a) Jackie Robinson in 1947 levels of controversy or, b) something like the Tebow circus. You'll have media there covering you and talking about him sure, because it' a landmark, but it's going to be overwhelmingly positive coverage and there's no obvious reason it should be a problem for anyone. Players have to talk to the media anyway, who cares if they're getting questions about the late round draft pick instead of a tweaked muscle or something?
    Agree about people overblowing the "media circus" part. We have had Ray Lewis go on trial for murder. Following that "media circus", the Ravens won the Super Bowl.

    We had another player (Jamal) go to prison during the offseason over a drug deal. Actually did time. The media attention on his return didn't hurt the team, it just wasn't very good that year.

    I can't believe this would somehow be so difficult to deal with.




  12. #42

    Re: Ravens, Pats and Jets are Interested in Michael Sam

    Ray Lewis is a HOF player. Jamal Lewis is one of seven players to ever rush for 2,000 yards. Micheal Sams is not Ray or Jamal Lewis. If Sams were a first round talent, then any media storm would be worth it.

    As for the media attention being positive, you're right, it would be for a while. But what happens if he gets cut? Then we have to sit around listening to the media wondering if we cut him because he's gay. That's not counting the problem of having the media ask a bunch of football players if they're okay with a gay person on the team. Just one negative remark and shit will hit the fan. Hell, it doesn't even have to be a negative remark. We see how GLADD loves to accuse people of bigotry without proof.

    A fifth round at best talent is not worth that headache. He simply isn't.
    "A moron, a rapist, and a Pittsburgh Steeler walk into a bar. He sits down and says, Hi Im Ben may I have a drink please?
    ProFootballMock




  13. #43
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    Re: Ravens, Pats and Jets are Interested in Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by NC Raven View Post
    Agree about people overblowing the "media circus" part. We have had Ray Lewis go on trial for murder. Following that "media circus", the Ravens won the Super Bowl.

    We had another player (Jamal) go to prison during the offseason over a drug deal. Actually did time. The media attention on his return didn't hurt the team, it just wasn't very good that year.

    I can't believe this would somehow be so difficult to deal with.
    Neither Ray or Jamal had to deal with a 24/7 news cycle and a full compliment of social media outlets like we have now.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  14. #44

    Re: Ravens, Pats and Jets are Interested in Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Neither Ray or Jamal had to deal with a 24/7 news cycle and a full compliment of social media outlets like we have now.
    Not until they got into legal problems. SMH




  15. #45
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    Re: Ravens, Pats and Jets are Interested in Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by lovefootball View Post
    Not until they got into legal problems. SMH
    Yeah, seriously.

    I really wonder here about all this concern about the media as an excuse not to have him on the team. Way too much unhealthy concern trolling by people here.




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