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  1. #16

    Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco



    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens Fan View Post
    Boldin was elite talent. It didnt show up on the stat sheet during his time in Bmore but he had legit #1 numbers in AZ and San Francisco
    In a pass heavy offense where he was the #2 and on a team with literally no other WR option on the team... yes. Boldin is not a #1 WR that were talking about. You put a complimentary WR in as your #1 hes going to produce very well that doesnt mean hes the all around threat that a true #1 wr is. Not every team has a #1 WR, but everyone has a WR they throw to like they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens Fan View Post
    I know this is a Ravens board, and most criticism of Flacco is taken as trolling, but in order to have an "elite receiver" you have to have a quarterback that is able to post elite regular season numbers. Flacco is not that guy
    thats kind of BS. you can have an Elite WR like say Josh Gordon, with a bunch of nobodies throwing him the ball. You can have a Megatron account for nearly half the yards his QB throws for. A Fitz that has had astring of horrible QBs still get him the ball... the difference is those elites can help make the QB better by being reliable no matter down or distance. Flacco has never had a guy like that. No matter how much people love Boldin, he was not nearly consistent enough in this offense to be considered on the same level as those others.
    Last edited by JAB1985; 04-16-2014 at 11:28 AM.
    -JAB




  2. #17
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    Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens Fan View Post
    I know this is a Ravens board, and most criticism of Flacco is taken as trolling, but in order to have an "elite receiver" you have to have a quarterback that is able to post elite regular season numbers. Flacco is not that guy
    so please explain josh Gordon.please explain Larry fitz. Your theory fails.

    You can easily have an elite wr without an elite QB.

    Guys like AJ and Julio would put up numbers regardless of their QB 9.9/10 times. It would have to be a truly horrible situation for them to not produce off of their own elite talent.
    Last edited by bt12483; 04-16-2014 at 11:39 AM.




  3. #18

    Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco

    I meant elite stats, because that seems to be what alot of people judge receivers on. It might come as a surprise but the Cleveland Browns had 4400 passing yards last year, 500 more than we did.

    Fitz has not had 1000 yards since 2011




  4. #19
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    Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens Fan View Post
    I know this is a Ravens board, and most criticism of Flacco is taken as trolling, but in order to have an "elite receiver" you have to have a quarterback that is able to post elite regular season numbers. Flacco is not that guy
    What about Cam's offense strikes you as developing elite receivers or elite QB's?
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  5. #20
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    Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens Fan View Post
    I meant elite stats, because that seems to be what alot of people judge receivers on. It might come as a surprise but the Cleveland Browns had 4400 passing yards last year, 500 more than we did.

    Fitz has not had 1000 yards since 2011
    it fails any way you slice it. Gordon put up elite stats with no one at QB.

    Fitzgerald is still elite even without 1000 yards. He has been in one of the worst offensive scenarios in the league the past few seasons, with a horrible OL and mostly horrible QBs outside of what Palmer has left. Before that were guys like Skelton etc.

    The point remains...an elite WR stands on his own. That is what makes him elite.




  6. #21
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    Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    What about Cam's offense strikes you as developing elite receivers or elite QB's?
    Just to play devils advocate i suppose the SD offense could be used as a rebuttal. But that mainly ran through LT.




  7. #22
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    Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens Fan View Post
    I meant elite stats, because that seems to be what alot of people judge receivers on. It might come as a surprise but the Cleveland Browns had 4400 passing yards last year, 500 more than we did.

    Fitz has not had 1000 yards since 2011
    Josh Gordon and Jordan Cameron.

    What receiver or TE did the Ravens had (or have) that even come close to those two players?
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  8. #23
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    Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Just to play devils advocate is suppose the SD offense could be used as a rebuttal. But that mainly ran through LT.
    That's just my point.

    Cam's offense was great at developing a robust ground game. LT, Le'Ron McClain, McGahee, Rice, and so on. His version of the ACO goes through the RB. That's just his style.

    Kubiak's offense is heavily predicated on the run, but also uses a much more modern route tree and passing concepts than what Cam did.
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  9. #24

    Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco

    Josh Gordon...200+ targets last year, hence the inflated stats. But if you want to crown him as an elite WR be my guest. It doesnt really matter, my point is that our system is not set up to produce those kind of numbers, which is why even when we have elite talent like Boldin it doesnt show up on the stat sheet.

    Im sure if we got another elite receiver we would be better, theres no doubt about that...but who would we get? Who is available? I think the main point of Jamie Dukes was calling out the FO for not giving Flacco enough weapons, but to me they have done a good enough job in that area for the most part.

    Then last year they tried to increase our pass attempts drastically while also losing our best receiver. It didnt work which is why we need to go back to a run first system.




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    Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens Fan View Post
    Josh Gordon...200+ targets last year, hence the inflated stats. But if you want to crown him as an elite WR be my guest. It doesnt really matter, my point is that our system is not set up to produce those kind of numbers, which is why even when we have elite talent like Boldin it doesnt show up on the stat sheet.

    Im sure if we got another elite receiver we would be better, theres no doubt about that...but who would we get? Who is available?
    That's actually not correct at all. Gordon had 159 targets in 2013 with 87 receptions. Torrey had 139 targets with 65 receptions. While this isn't 100% accurate because targets do not take into consideration poor throws or disrupted throws (from my understanding), but that is more than a 10% difference in catch-to-target ratio between Gordon and Torrey.

    If you can't look at what Gordon was able to do in 14 games with Brian Hoyer/Brandon Weeden/Jason Campbell throwing him the ball and think that he's not an elite player...I don't know what to tell you. He led the league in receiving...in 2 less games than practically every other leading receiver. For the BROWNS who had no running game to speak of themselves and had a different QB every month.
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  11. #26
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    Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco

    Numbers != Elite, unless it's fantasy football.




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    Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens Fan View Post

    Then last year they tried to increase our pass attempts drastically while also losing our best receiver. It didnt work which is why we need to go back to a run first system.
    3.1ypc rushing. Necessitates throwing more than you might want to to a WR corp missing targets.




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    Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    That's actually not correct at all. Gordon had 159 targets in 2013 with 87 receptions. Torrey had 139 targets with 65 receptions. While this isn't 100% accurate because targets do not take into consideration poor throws or disrupted throws (from my understanding), but that is more than a 10% difference in catch-to-target ratio between Gordon and Torrey.

    If you can't look at what Gordon was able to do in 14 games with Brian Hoyer/Brandon Weeden/Jason Campbell throwing him the ball and think that he's not an elite player...I don't know what to tell you. He led the league in receiving...in 2 less games than practically every other leading receiver. For the BROWNS who had no running game to speak of themselves and had a different QB every month.




  14. #29
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    Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    3.1ypc rushing. Necessitates throwing more than you might want to to a WR corp missing targets.
    I think this is the most salient point about our offense last year.

    It was entirely predicated on the run and the ability to run play-action with vertical routes. IIRC, the Ravens had the most pass deep pass attempts in 2012 or something like that and they continued that trend in 2013.

    The problem was once the run was completely dismantled, they were still running routes and passing plays that were based off of a solid running game. It just wasn't there last year and showed how poorly prepared the offensive coaching staff was.
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    Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco

    I would be more willing to accept that Joe Flacco isn't that guy if we saw him fail with top notch WRs/TEs around him. We haven't seen him with a Gronkowski/Welker/Hernandez combination and NE's system which better fits their QB's strength, even though they are capable of running the football. We haven't seen him with a Calvin Johnson or an Andre Johnson (In his prime which is what Schaub saw) or an AJ Green. We haven't seen him with a Reggie Wayne/Marvin Harrison/Dallas Clark(In his prime) combination with a system that better fit the QB. We haven't seen him with a Thomas,Welker,Thomas,Decker combination in yet another system that better fits the QB, while they are capable of running the ball.

    The closest that we saw was when Caldwell took over for Cam, moved Boldin to the slot and you had Smith/Boldin/Pitta with slightly better play calling. And look at what happened.

    It's really an unfortunate testament to the Ravens ability and desire to improve the passing offense when an aged Steve Smith, Torrey Smith, Pitta, an often injured Daniels and second year developing Marlon Brown represent the best collection of pass catchers that Flacco has ever had.
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