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  1. #97
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    Re: TMZ says Kaepernick is under investigation for sexual assault



    Quote Originally Posted by blah3 View Post
    I didn't see a whole lot of blame the victim. What I saw was people unwilling to call the guys rapists without more evidence. It's called presumption of innocence. Apparently only players that play for the Ravens are given that privileged by many on this board.
    I'm all for the presumption of innocence. The last sentence in my post that you did not quote, said we should wait for more information before making judgments. The overall tone of many posts in this thread is that if that woman was violated it's largely her fault for being in that situation. Something I fundamentally disagree with and find insulting.
    "I got this." - Justin Tucker




  2. #98

    Re: TMZ says Kaepernick is under investigation for sexual assault

    Quote Originally Posted by Dade View Post
    I'm all for the presumption of innocence. The last sentence in my post that you did not quote, said we should wait for more information before making judgments. The overall tone of many posts in this thread is that if that woman was violated it's largely her fault for being in that situation. Something I fundamentally disagree with and find insulting.
    And yet when other posters actually give presumption of innocence you criticize them.
    Last edited by blah3; 04-14-2014 at 09:35 AM.




  3. #99

    Re: TMZ says Kaepernick is under investigation for sexual assault

    Theres a big difference in presuming innocence and saying the victim is on a "money grab" or that she put herself in that situation to have been molested/raped which is the real topic ive been trying to address.

    If its not been clear, I have no idea what happened (either does the girl in question apparently) and im not willing to call them rapists at the moment, but for sake of argument i have used the circumstances as an example. if were going to assume their innocence id expect the same for the girl.
    -JAB




  4. #100

    Re: TMZ says Kaepernick is under investigation for sexual assault

    Quote Originally Posted by blah3 View Post
    And yet when other posters actual give presumption of innocence you criticize them.
    No one has a problem with presumption of innocence. The problem we have is a different presumption: presumption of "false-victimhood." It's fair to point out that we don't know all the facts, but what we do know is that there is a woman who filed a complaint of a sexual nature with law enforcement; a woman whose last memory is apparently falling asleep naked (and having not consented to sex) in an apartment full of men. That same woman has now had a rape kit done which would have only occurred with her permission.

    And yet, as soon as the barest details of this story were reported, a legion of frathouse flunkies checked in to say that "she got herself into the situation," "it's probably a money grab anyway," "what did she expect to happen," etc. And that is why rape and sexual assault are still crimes that we don't deal well with as a society. For too many people, a victim of sexual assault has to go out of her way (and it's almost always "her") to prove she WASN'T asking for it. To prove she WASN'T lying. To prove she WASN'T responsible in some way for her own victimhood.

    There is no other class of crime that functions like that in our society. Victims of theft, fraud, assault, etc. don't have to go out of their way to overcome that kind of presumption. I have no problem with presuming the innocence of the men in question, but I DO have a problem with preemptively attacking the woman in question here. Let the facts play out for themselves, but don't approach the situation with an assumption that she was asking for it, deserved it, or is just making the whole thing up for a money grab.




  5. #101
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    Re: TMZ says Kaepernick is under investigation for sexual assault

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    No one has a problem with presumption of innocence. The problem we have is a different presumption: presumption of "false-victimhood." It's fair to point out that we don't know all the facts, but what we do know is that there is a woman who filed a complaint of a sexual nature with law enforcement; a woman whose last memory is apparently falling asleep naked (and having not consented to sex) in an apartment full of men. That same woman has now had a rape kit done which would have only occurred with her permission.

    And yet, as soon as the barest details of this story were reported, a legion of frathouse flunkies checked in to say that "she got herself into the situation," "it's probably a money grab anyway," "what did she expect to happen," etc. And that is why rape and sexual assault are still crimes that we don't deal well with as a society. For too many people, a victim of sexual assault has to go out of her way (and it's almost always "her") to prove she WASN'T asking for it. To prove she WASN'T lying. To prove she WASN'T responsible in some way for her own victimhood.

    There is no other class of crime that functions like that in our society. Victims of theft, fraud, assault, etc. don't have to go out of their way to overcome that kind of presumption. I have no problem with presuming the innocence of the men in question, but I DO have a problem with preemptively attacking the woman in question here. Let the facts play out for themselves, but don't approach the situation with an assumption that she was asking for it, deserved it, or is just making the whole thing up for a money grab.
    The fact of the matter are false rape allegations are not rare, so I don't think it's unreasonable to people to believe she might be "making it up as a money grab".

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/05...-than-thought/
    https://www.google.com/search?q=fals...ed=0CAgQ_AUoAQ




  6. #102
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    Re: TMZ says Kaepernick is under investigation for sexual assault

    Quote Originally Posted by Paintballguy View Post
    The fact of the matter are false rape allegations are not rare, so I don't think it's unreasonable to people to believe she might be "making it up as a money grab".

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/05...-than-thought/
    https://www.google.com/search?q=fals...ed=0CAgQ_AUoAQ
    Knee jerk conclusions based on little evidence doesn't help your side of the debate, no matter the number of articles you post.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  7. #103

    Re: TMZ says Kaepernick is under investigation for sexual assault

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    No one has a problem with presumption of innocence. The problem we have is a different presumption: presumption of "false-victimhood." It's fair to point out that we don't know all the facts, but what we do know is that there is a woman who filed a complaint of a sexual nature with law enforcement; a woman whose last memory is apparently falling asleep naked (and having not consented to sex) in an apartment full of men. That same woman has now had a rape kit done which would have only occurred with her permission.

    And yet, as soon as the barest details of this story were reported, a legion of frathouse flunkies checked in to say that "she got herself into the situation," "it's probably a money grab anyway," "what did she expect to happen," etc. And that is why rape and sexual assault are still crimes that we don't deal well with as a society. For too many people, a victim of sexual assault has to go out of her way (and it's almost always "her") to prove she WASN'T asking for it. To prove she WASN'T lying. To prove she WASN'T responsible in some way for her own victimhood.

    There is no other class of crime that functions like that in our society. Victims of theft, fraud, assault, etc. don't have to go out of their way to overcome that kind of presumption. I have no problem with presuming the innocence of the men in question, but I DO have a problem with preemptively attacking the woman in question here. Let the facts play out for themselves, but don't approach the situation with an assumption that she was asking for it, deserved it, or is just making the whole thing up for a money grab.

    This is the full amount of what was reported about the incident.

    According to the report, the incident occurred April 1 when a woman went to Lockette's apartment in Miami at 9 p.m. Kaepernick and Patton were there, and the woman made drinks and served shots to the players. She was also told "to drink the shots she had to "hit" the bong which contained marijuana,' the report said.

    The report continues to say that the woman felt light headed and went to a bedroom where she was later joined by Kaepernick, with whom she had a sexual relationship in the past. Kaepernick then left the bedroom. The two did not have sex, she said in the report. The report says that Patton and Lockette peeked inside the bedroom and that the woman yelled at them to get out.

    According to the report, the woman does not remember anything about the night after that. She woke up in a hospital bed not knowing how she got there. The woman, whose name is redacted, reported the incident to police on April 3.


    There is simply nothing in those details that indicate rape. Heck she even said Kap did not have sex with her and left the room. Yet many had absolutely no problem speculating that that the guys raped her.
    No one wants the girl to have been raped. But not many seem too concerned about getting falsely accused of rape.




  8. #104

    Re: TMZ says Kaepernick is under investigation for sexual assault

    Quote Originally Posted by Paintballguy View Post
    The fact of the matter are false rape allegations are not rare, so I don't think it's unreasonable to people to believe she might be "making it up as a money grab".

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/05...-than-thought/
    https://www.google.com/search?q=fals...ed=0CAgQ_AUoAQ
    Are you seriously using a Google News search as evidence of that point?

    The Faux News article you cite is a nearly 8 year old editorial with no author listed. It cites nearly 20 year old articles that don't even actually say what you seem to be claiming.

    The 1996 study (which is no longer even available) apparently found that in 25% of the sexual assault cases examined, the primary suspect was excluded by DNA testing. The article doesn't specify what class or classes of crimes were examined--just forcible rape/sexual assault, all sexual assault, etc... In any event, what they found doesn't mean 25% of the cases were precipitated on false reports; the primary suspect may not have been the perpetrator for ANY reason. To draw the conclusion that "25% of rape allegations are false" is ludicrous. Even if that were the case and 25% of rape/sexual assault accusations are false, that means 75% of them are not--meaning the vast majority are true.

    Determining the rate of legitimately false (as in, made up by the "victim") accusations of rape is notoriously difficult and the literature points to potential rates anywhere from 1%-47% with an outlier study even finding 90% (which I think is definitely bogus because no other study has ever duplicated those results.) The Wikipedia article is a good place to start reviewing those studies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_a...ney_.282006.29




  9. #105

    Re: TMZ says Kaepernick is under investigation for sexual assault

    Quote Originally Posted by blah3 View Post
    This is the full amount of what was reported about the incident.

    According to the report, the incident occurred April 1 when a woman went to Lockette's apartment in Miami at 9 p.m. Kaepernick and Patton were there, and the woman made drinks and served shots to the players. She was also told "to drink the shots she had to "hit" the bong which contained marijuana,' the report said.

    The report continues to say that the woman felt light headed and went to a bedroom where she was later joined by Kaepernick, with whom she had a sexual relationship in the past. Kaepernick then left the bedroom. The two did not have sex, she said in the report. The report says that Patton and Lockette peeked inside the bedroom and that the woman yelled at them to get out.

    According to the report, the woman does not remember anything about the night after that. She woke up in a hospital bed not knowing how she got there. The woman, whose name is redacted, reported the incident to police on April 3.


    There is simply nothing in those details that indicate rape. Heck she even said Kap did not have sex with her and left the room. Yet many had absolutely no problem speculating that that the guys raped her.
    No one wants the girl to have been raped. But not many seem too concerned about getting falsely accused of rape.
    Well... there is, you know, the fact that she filed a complaint with law enforcement. A complaint that LE confirmed is sexual in nature. Maybe you missed some of the details that have emerged since the initial report, because what you cited is not "the full amount of what was reported." Here's a source: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archiv...stigation.html

    Meanwhile, Miami police are examining evidence and waiting on toxicology reports in the case, The Miami Herald reported on Friday. "We have to examine evidence and wait for some tests to come back, including toxicology reports," Police Chief Manuel Orosa told the newspaper. "We can present it to the state attorney and they can decide whether to continue." Orosa added: "It's too early to determine what the evidence indicates."

    The case is being handled by the Miami Police Department's Special Victims Unit, which investigates sexual battery and other serious crimes. Citing sources, the Herald reported that the unidentified woman underwent a rape test but that the results are not public. Kaepernick, Patton and Lockette have not been interviewed by police and no charges have been filed.




  10. #106
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    Re: TMZ says Kaepernick is under investigation for sexual assault

    Some of you are putting too much into the "she put herself into that situation" comments. Nobody is cold hearting her, saying oh well it's her falult, nobody is condoning certian men's behavior towards women. What is being said is that some women maybe should think about it a little more, and be a little more cognizant of what she is getting herself in to. Is it right she should have to do that? NO. Is it an unfortunate reality in today's society? YES!
    "What would you give for the man beside you?"




  11. #107

    Re: TMZ says Kaepernick is under investigation for sexual assault

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Well... there is, you know, the fact that she filed a complaint with law enforcement. A complaint that LE confirmed is sexual in nature. Maybe you missed some of the details that have emerged since the initial report, because what you cited is not "the full amount of what was reported." Here's a source: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archiv...stigation.html
    When I said the extent of what was reported, related to what had been posted on this thread.


    Now, since you are keen on getting out all the details, let's examine THIS that was in your link.

    It turns out that Miami Fire Rescue personnel transported the 25-year-old woman from the players' suite at the Viceroy hotel to a downtown Miami hospital. Lt. Ignatius Carroll said emergency responders were dispatched at 12:32 a.m on April 2 and that they were summoned by police, who were already at the hotel suite.

    Sources familiar with the incident said it was one of the players who placed the original calls - two of them - to the police. When police arrived they became concerned with the woman's frame of mind, and they called Miami Fire Rescue, which handles EMT service in that city.


    Read more here: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archiv...#storylink=cpy




  12. #108

    Re: TMZ says Kaepernick is under investigation for sexual assault

    [QUOTE=blah3;770237]
    Heck she even said Kap did not have sex with her and left the room.

    CK still having problems staying in the pocket. Lockette and Patton peeked in the room and CK changed his mind and scrambled again. Going to affect his contract price with indecision. SMH




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