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  1. #31
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    Re: Big Ben and Flacco: Through year 6



    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Up until the 2012 playoffs, Joe's wasn't incredible either.


    Context fellas. Context.


    Joe is Baltimore's QB. Nothing is going to change that for the foreseeable future. He is the best QB Baltimore has had since Johnny U was in town.


    Baltimore fans should have zero fucks to give about what other fans think and what the media thinks. As long as Joe continues to help the Ravens win games, what else matters?

    Just look at last year. Completely abysmal, yet the Ravens were 8-8 and were playoff eligible. Joe wasn't great at all last year, but he did enough to help the Ravens stay playoff eligible until the last minute.
    Fine. But now people can see how similar the career arcs are and have a rebuttal when the topic arises.

    Information never hurt anyone.




  2. #32
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    Re: Big Ben and Flacco: Through year 6

    Quote Originally Posted by pslholder96 View Post
    4th quarter comeback is a definately an important statistic and deservedly so. Who cares how the team was performing prior to the comeback? The goal is to win, something that comeback wins lead to.
    what if the QB threw 3 picks, putting their team in a losing position, and their D then gets a turnover and the RB runs 3 times to get to FG range. That would count as a 4QC. That a QB technically would be credited for. Not all 4QCs are created equal.




  3. #33

    Re: Big Ben and Flacco: Through year 6

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Up until the 2012 playoffs, Joe's wasn't incredible either.


    Context fellas. Context.


    Joe is Baltimore's QB. Nothing is going to change that for the foreseeable future. He is the best QB Baltimore has had since Johnny U was in town.


    Baltimore fans should have zero fucks to give about what other fans think and what the media thinks. As long as Joe continues to help the Ravens win games, what else matters?

    Just look at last year. Completely abysmal, yet the Ravens were 8-8 and were playoff eligible. Joe wasn't great at all last year, but he did enough to help the Ravens stay playoff eligible until the last minute.

    And, IMO, its reasonable to think that if he doesn't get hurt against the Lions then they probably make it in.




  4. #34

    Re: Big Ben and Flacco: Through year 6

    Quote Originally Posted by pslholder96 View Post
    4th quarter comeback is a definately an important statistic and deservedly so. Who cares how the team was performing prior to the comeback? The goal is to win, something that comeback wins lead to.
    The point is i wouldnt call them greater than a non-comeback win. Wins isnt a great argument for QBs in general imo. way too many factors to claim them as the QBs alone. Only reason they have so much emphasis around here is because thats the only thing Flacco has thats tangible in the argument.
    -JAB




  5. #35
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    Re: Big Ben and Flacco: Through year 6

    Quote Originally Posted by goodandfast View Post
    And, IMO, its reasonable to think that if he doesn't get hurt against the Lions then they probably make it in.
    I agree.




  6. #36

    Re: Big Ben and Flacco: Through year 6

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    what if the QB threw 3 picks, putting their team in a losing position, and their D then gets a turnover and the RB runs 3 times to get to FG range. That would count as a 4QC. That a QB technically would be credited for. Not all 4QCs are created equal.
    Now I think you're just splitting hairs. A comeback win is a comeback win. Period.




  7. #37
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    Re: Big Ben and Flacco: Through year 6

    Quote Originally Posted by pslholder96 View Post
    Now I think you're just splitting hairs. A comeback win is a comeback win. Period.
    if the QB put you in the losing position in the first place, then does little to contribute to the actual comeback, why should it count the same? It is a flawed "stat" without context of the details of the gameflow.




  8. #38
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    Re: Big Ben and Flacco: Through year 6

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Fine. But now people can see how similar the career arcs are and have a rebuttal when the topic arises.

    Information never hurt anyone.

    I agree.

    Though, folks who trash Flacco generally aren't dabbling in fact.
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  9. #39

    Re: Big Ben and Flacco: Through year 6

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    if the QB put you in the losing position in the first place, then does little to contribute to the actual comeback, why should it count the same? It is a flawed "stat" without context of the details of the gameflow.
    If it's a flawed stat without the context, then you're entire comparision of Ben vs Joe is flawed as well. Maybe you should show offensive/defensive rankings by year, evaulate the talent level around the two, etc.




  10. #40
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    Re: Big Ben and Flacco: Through year 6

    Quote Originally Posted by pslholder96 View Post
    If it's a flawed stat without the context, then you're entire comparision of Ben vs Joe is flawed as well. Maybe you should show offensive/defensive rankings by year, evaulate the talent level around the two, etc.
    Ain't nobody got time for dat.

    All I am saying is 4QCs are very nuanced, more so than bulk stats. Smaller sample size, etc.




  11. #41
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    Re: Big Ben and Flacco: Through year 6

    IMO Flacco and Ben are very similar type QB's, some underrate Flacco's ability to extend the play, but he has demonstrated that over and over again, particularly last year when he was running for his life seemingly every dropback.

    Both QB's are superior athletes to Manning and Brady, and both are better QB's when on the move than Manning or Brady, who IMO(and in probably other opinions as well) are actually fairly below average when forced out of the pocket. Which truly begs the question - are Manning and Brady really the best QB's of their generation, or are they a product of great offensive line play and system as much as anything else? I've wondered that for a few years, especially with the recent playoff failures of both. Obvious both are very cerebral players with tremendous stats and success, but what if they didn't have the walls of humanity surrounding them that kept their pockets clean? How do they compare with someone like Aaron Rodgers, who has had similar numbers and success but nowhere near the quality of line play? Or even Brett Favre? It seems like both QB's were undid when the opponents were able to generate a consistent pass rush. Think of the last two Patriot Superbowls against the Giants. Or Peyton against the Seahawks. Or Brady vs the Ravens. These guys are very ineffective outside of the pocket for the most part.




  12. #42
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    Re: Big Ben and Flacco: Through year 6

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Ain't nobody got time for dat.

    All I am saying is 4QCs are very nuanced, more so than bulk stats. Smaller sample size, etc.
    True. Another big nuance in 4QCs is that sometimes the QB does everything he can do to get the 4QC, but something beyond his control happens to take it away from him. Joe completed a 4QC down in Atlanta, but the defense then quickly squandered the lead on the Roddy White pushoff. He had a couple big 4QCs in the playoffs where he did what he was supposed to, but the receivers didn't catch the ball. (Evans, Boldin, Housh.)

    I'm sure Ben has games like this too, but unless you want to go game by game, the 4QC stat doesn't give you that much of value. The eye test tells me both QBs are guys I wouldn't mind having the ball with the game on the line.
    "Leave. Your. Mark."




  13. #43
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    Re: Big Ben and Flacco: Through year 6

    Give Aaron Rodgers the same lines that Brady and Manning have or have had.. you know, the ones that never get called for holding... and Rodgers is easily the best of those 3.

    Ben gets the edge for extending the play. Seriously how many games has that guy pulled out of his ass when you thought the play was over. I'll give him credit there as deserved.. Flacco has done the same but not quite to the extent of Ben.

    Otherwise the two QB's are strikingly similar.. And if not for the choke job by Cundiff and Evans in the AFCC in 2012, Joe could very well have the same amount of rings as Ben.




  14. #44
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    Re: Big Ben and Flacco: Through year 6

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Some interesting notes:

    Flacco and Big Ben have almost identical yards/game throughout their career (222.2 to 221.2)

    Big Ben has averaged 1 INT/game for his entire career (97 INTs in 97 games).

    Big Ben had a similar "upside down" season as Flacco did this year. Big Ben threw 18 TDs and 23 INTs in his third season. Flacco just threw 19 TDs and 22 INTs.

    Big Ben has a higher TD rate, but also a higher INT rate. Overall Flacco has the better TD:INT ratio.

    Joe's durability is an added benefit.

    You could also compare sacks and fumbles, which I think would also be quite similar.

    Flacco has a lower completion percentage. But you would have to analyze which QB on average threw more low completion deep passes to see how scheme/playcalling impacts those completion percentages. QBs that throw more deep passes tend to have a lower completion percentage.
    This is entirely undervalued IMO. Ben has missed six -- SIX! -- Ravens/Steeler games since he's been in the league. Six games against your biggest rival. Six games where the division hangs in the balance. In his ten seasons in the league, he's been able to play 16 games exactly twice. On days he's sitting on the bench he may as well be Kyle Boller.

    If you want to compare Joe to Ben, you actually have to compare Joe to 89%Ben+11%Charlie Batch.
    "Leave. Your. Mark."




  15. #45

    Re: Big Ben and Flacco: Through year 6

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Imo it seems like people rarely mention how big Ben benefits front the Steelers D but it is always an excuse used for flacco it seems. Its a little hypocritical. Especially when we see their stats are so close.
    Or they rarely talk about the receivers ben has had compared to flacco. Or the benefit of having Todd haley, ken whisenhut or bruce arians calling plays ........ If flacco gets a decent line behind Kubes... watch out, but kubes is probably only here one year




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