Big Ben and Flacco: Through year 6

**bt12483** · 03-19-2014, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by pslholder96

Now I think you're just splitting hairs. A comeback win is a comeback win. Period.

if the QB put you in the losing position in the first place, then does little to contribute to the actual comeback, why should it count the same? It is a flawed "stat" without context of the details of the gameflow.

**wickedsolo** · 03-19-2014, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by bt12483

Fine. But now people can see how similar the career arcs are and have a rebuttal when the topic arises.

Information never hurt anyone.

I agree.

Though, folks who trash Flacco generally aren't dabbling in fact. :)

**pslholder96** · 03-19-2014, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by bt12483

if the QB put you in the losing position in the first place, then does little to contribute to the actual comeback, why should it count the same? It is a flawed "stat" without context of the details of the gameflow.

If it's a flawed stat without the context, then you're entire comparision of Ben vs Joe is flawed as well. Maybe you should show offensive/defensive rankings by year, evaulate the talent level around the two, etc.

**bt12483** · 03-19-2014, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by pslholder96

If it's a flawed stat without the context, then you're entire comparision of Ben vs Joe is flawed as well. Maybe you should show offensive/defensive rankings by year, evaulate the talent level around the two, etc.

Ain't nobody got time for dat.

All I am saying is 4QCs are very nuanced, more so than bulk stats. Smaller sample size, etc.

**alienrace** · 03-19-2014, 11:28 AM

IMO Flacco and Ben are very similar type QB's, some underrate Flacco's ability to extend the play, but he has demonstrated that over and over again, particularly last year when he was running for his life seemingly every dropback.

Both QB's are superior athletes to Manning and Brady, and both are better QB's when on the move than Manning or Brady, who IMO(and in probably other opinions as well) are actually fairly below average when forced out of the pocket. Which truly begs the question - are Manning and Brady really the best QB's of their generation, or are they a product of great offensive line play and system as much as anything else? I've wondered that for a few years, especially with the recent playoff failures of both. Obvious both are very cerebral players with tremendous stats and success, but what if they didn't have the walls of humanity surrounding them that kept their pockets clean? How do they compare with someone like Aaron Rodgers, who has had similar numbers and success but nowhere near the quality of line play? Or even Brett Favre? It seems like both QB's were undid when the opponents were able to generate a consistent pass rush. Think of the last two Patriot Superbowls against the Giants. Or Peyton against the Seahawks. Or Brady vs the Ravens. These guys are very ineffective outside of the pocket for the most part.

**HotInHere** · 03-19-2014, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by bt12483

Ain't nobody got time for dat.

All I am saying is 4QCs are very nuanced, more so than bulk stats. Smaller sample size, etc.

True. Another big nuance in 4QCs is that sometimes the QB does everything he can do to get the 4QC, but something beyond his control happens to take it away from him. Joe completed a 4QC down in Atlanta, but the defense then quickly squandered the lead on the Roddy White pushoff. He had a couple big 4QCs in the playoffs where he did what he was supposed to, but the receivers didn't catch the ball. (Evans, Boldin, Housh.)

I'm sure Ben has games like this too, but unless you want to go game by game, the 4QC stat doesn't give you that much of value. The eye test tells me both QBs are guys I wouldn't mind having the ball with the game on the line.

**Ravenboy2003** · 03-19-2014, 11:55 AM

Give Aaron Rodgers the same lines that Brady and Manning have or have had.. you know, the ones that never get called for holding... and Rodgers is easily the best of those 3.

Ben gets the edge for extending the play. Seriously how many games has that guy pulled out of his ass when you thought the play was over. I'll give him credit there as deserved.. Flacco has done the same but not quite to the extent of Ben.

Otherwise the two QB's are strikingly similar.. And if not for the choke job by Cundiff and Evans in the AFCC in 2012, Joe could very well have the same amount of rings as Ben.

**HotInHere** · 03-19-2014, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by bt12483

Some interesting notes:

Flacco and Big Ben have almost identical yards/game throughout their career (222.2 to 221.2)

Big Ben has averaged 1 INT/game for his entire career (97 INTs in 97 games).

Big Ben had a similar "upside down" season as Flacco did this year. Big Ben threw 18 TDs and 23 INTs in his third season. Flacco just threw 19 TDs and 22 INTs.

Big Ben has a higher TD rate, but also a higher INT rate. Overall Flacco has the better TD:INT ratio.

Joe's durability is an added benefit.

You could also compare sacks and fumbles, which I think would also be quite similar.

Flacco has a lower completion percentage. But you would have to analyze which QB on average threw more low completion deep passes to see how scheme/playcalling impacts those completion percentages. QBs that throw more deep passes tend to have a lower completion percentage.

This is entirely undervalued IMO. Ben has missed six -- SIX! -- Ravens/Steeler games since he's been in the league. Six games against your biggest rival. Six games where the division hangs in the balance. In his ten seasons in the league, he's been able to play 16 games exactly twice. On days he's sitting on the bench he may as well be Kyle Boller.

If you want to compare Joe to Ben, you actually have to compare Joe to 89%Ben+11%Charlie Batch.

**HbgPARavenfan** · 03-19-2014, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by bt12483

Imo it seems like people rarely mention how big Ben benefits front the Steelers D but it is always an excuse used for flacco it seems. Its a little hypocritical. Especially when we see their stats are so close.

Or they rarely talk about the receivers ben has had compared to flacco. Or the benefit of having Todd haley, ken whisenhut or bruce arians calling plays ........ If flacco gets a decent line behind Kubes... watch out, but kubes is probably only here one year

**NCRAVEN** · 03-19-2014, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

So?

The Steelers won that game.

Against the Patriots during the playoffs a few years ago, Flacco had about the same and the Ravens won.

I think the point was that the teams didn't win because of the QB in those games.

**HbgPARavenfan** · 03-19-2014, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

I think the point was that the teams didn't win because of the QB in those games.

C'mon man throwing that lateral to let his WR throw a TD pass took a lot of skill

**JustaslowZ06** · 03-19-2014, 02:25 PM

Dunno, Joe had a game to get us into the playoffs last year and he went 30 of 50 for only 192 1 TD and you know how many pickles one of which was a pick 6.

The game before that? He got embarrassed by the Pat's who he usually handles. Although Joe was hurt.

That being said, yeah looking at the stats its funny how Ben gets praised and Joe gets ignored.