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  1. #61
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens should heavily pursue a new OC and DC for 2014.



    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Word is they offered the OC position to Montgomery first, but he didn't want it.

    I think Caldwell is a good QB coach and a good designer, but he falls short in the play calling department. Calling plays during the game is an art that not many have. You can design great plays all you want, but if you don't have a feel for the game, it is hard to make those designs work.

    Cam had this problem.


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    I'll preface this by saying if Caldwell does somehow end up getting fired, I'm not really going to shed any tears.

    I know the story with Montgomery, he was using the fact that he was pre-determined to be the RB coach to support the idea that Caldwell never got a chance to pick his guys, which isn't really true at all. He didn't pick his guys because a) Harbs picks them not Caldwelll and b) it's very unlikely they would have found a better option anyway, since he is well-respected.

    I agree with what you're saying for the most part but it seemed as if his "feel" for the game was fine last year when he had better talent to work with. I don't think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread but there was pretty much unanimous support of his "feel" for the game after the Super Bowl run.

    Did he forget that feel? Probably not. More than likely, the reason why his "feel" looked so good last year was because A) for all his faults, I think he is still a better playcaller than Cam and when he came in he looked MUCH better than Cam, and B) he had better players making more plays, which made him look good. This is true of any o-coordinator.

    Which goes back to my original point, the talent level isn't very good on offense (though I don't think it's 31st ranked offense bad), so it's not a surprise that he looks like a bad playcaller.

    Furthermore, if you take Kubiak and stick him on this team next year (with no improvements) he will struggle like Caldwell did, and we'll be back to square one wanting to fire another coordinator.
    Last edited by s.r.genovese; 12-21-2013 at 02:31 PM.




  2. #62

    Re: The Baltimore Ravens should heavily pursue a new OC and DC for 2014.

    If you want Dean Pees fired for his performance, OP, what's going to stop us from cycling coordinators in and out every single year?




  3. #63
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens should heavily pursue a new OC and DC for 2014.

    "IF" the Ravens were to win the Super Bowl, that would make it two in a row, then it would be kind of difficult to relieve the OC and/or Dc of their duties. Management would have to be OCD, ADD, ADHD [and believe me I don't really know what those acronyms mean(?)] to upset the apple cart. May as well fire Harbaugh too... Bc




  4. #64
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens should heavily pursue a new OC and DC for 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by s.r.genovese View Post
    There is really no evidence that Caldwell doesn't have "true OC control" other than message board speculation. Also comparing this offense to the one he "ran" in Indy is silly because he never actually was an OC there, so obviously Indy was never running "his" offense. It was Tom Moore's offense which became Manning's offense essentially, when he left. Manning then brought basically the same offense to Denver.

    Caldwell has never run his "own" system in the NFL prior to now. So for all we know this IS his system.

    Also your Wilbert Montgomery example holds very little weight because a) the Head Coach, not the OC hires and fires assistants, and b) Montgomery is very well respected throughout the league and it is far more likely he kept the job because both Caldwell and Harbaugh respect his work.
    The word earlier this season was that John Harbaugh increased his level of input in the offense and that the players wanted to return to the style they used during the post-season, with Flacco having more control at the LOS. Harbaugh promised Montgomery a position, yet fired Jim Zorn, who was actually doing a good job with Flacco, when Cameron wanted him gone. When Cameron was here, he had more control and Harbaugh didn't step in, because Cameron's style meshed more with what Harbaugh wanted to do. It took him years to finally fire him.

    He even brings in Castillo to try running more zone blocking. Meanwhile, Caldwell didn't even get a chance to implement his style of Tom Moore's system. The idea that he's never called plays doesn't change the fact that he was under Moore. You tend to stay with the philosophy from under your coaching tree. Even if it didn't look like what was seen in Indianapolis, we still didn't get to see it, because Caldwell is still being asked to run someone else's system.

    No, Gary Kubiak would not struggle as much as Caldwell, because Kubiak's variation of the West Coast and rush offense does a significantly better job of scheming players open, instead of being so heavily dependent on every offensive player winning one on one matchups, something Greg Cosell and Ron Jaworski have both spoke about plenty.

    People are trying to use the team's success, almost as a reason as to why they should remain complacent with this outdated system, because it's worked in the past. Let me be clear, Joe Flacco had to go on a historic individual postseason run for them to win the Super Bowl. He shouldn't have to do that to win a Super Bowl. Do you pay the man to be capable of it? Yes, but to continue with the older system, while the front office continues to focus on other areas of the team before the offense, is essentially asking Joe Flacco to do that all over again if they want to win another Super Bowl.

    Only one drafted WR in the first three rounds since Joe has been here. No depth on the offensive line. I understand you can't have depth at every area, but no depth at Guard and Tackle? Knowing that KO was dealing with back issues and knowing that Yanda was recovering from surgery and knowing that McKinnie could not be trusted.

    No depth behind Pitta 'after' you trade Boldin. I don't mind you trading Boldin, but at least have some depth behind Pitta. There was nothing that Dickson showed for anyone to believe that he could adequately fill in, except looking at stats from two years ago (Where he still had issues dropping passes) and once again living in the past.

    The WRs still struggle against Man coverage, none of them make catches that aren't put right on them. The zone blocking was an inexplicable blunder by Harbaugh trying to outsmart himself, because he felt he had to step in with Cameron gone.

    There is very little with this system to help when the individual players struggle, which is where Kubiak's system would be a vast improvement. Kubiak's system would, at the very least, cut down on Flacco's pressures. I mean the man almost has to hold onto the ball, because WRs aren't getting open and most of the time they're all fifteen yards down the field. The system is too reliant on the run.

    The league has become a passing league and the Ravens are still living in the past. They can still run the ball, after it's set up with the pass, but no, they have to continuously stick to this running the ball mentality, when all it's going to do is darn near stall in the playoffs like it always does.

    If they had any of about 28 other QBs, they wouldn't have been able to get away with this as long as they have and it's not fair to Joe to keep asking him to keep turning chicken shit into chicken salad.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  5. #65
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens should heavily pursue a new OC and DC for 2014.

    In 13 playoff games, the Ravens have had two, count um', two 100 yard rushers, and Ray Rice had to carry the rock about thirty times to get the second one, he still didn't even average 4 yards per in that game.

    People are looking at both sides of the ball, particular the offense, and implying that since they've been winning, the system works. If you actually look at the way Cameron's system is supposed to run, it hasn't worked. It's run first and, again they've only had two 100 yard rushers in thirteen playoff games. They've gotten away with it, because they've constantly asked Joe Flacco to make it work late in games and far more often than not, he's delivered. Yet, instead of taking their best offensive weapon and making him the feared force that dictates to other teams, he's the afterthought to the rush offense and constantly called upon after the fact to throw in a disadvantaged situation. Why do you even have to wait until the second half of last year's AFC Championship Game to declare that you're going to put the ball in Joe's hands? That's the type of stuff Joe has had to deal with and people don't realize, he had to do something only Joe Montana has ever done to break through. Joe.....Montana. If that isn't a sign, I don't know what is.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  6. #66
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens should heavily pursue a new OC and DC for 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    He even brings in Castillo to try running more zone blocking. Meanwhile, Caldwell didn't even get a chance to implement his style of Tom Moore's system. The idea that he's never called plays doesn't change the fact that he was under Moore. You tend to stay with the philosophy from under your coaching tree. Even if it didn't look like what was seen in Indianapolis, we still didn't get to see it, because Caldwell is still being asked to run someone else's system.
    Caldwell was an offensive coach long before he ever met Tom Moore. I'm sure he had his own system before that. He certainly had his own system at Wake Forest. And for all we know this is it.

    There's no evidence that Harbs and Caldwell didn't collectively decide that ZBS would be effective and to hire Castillo. It's pure speculation that Caldwell wasn't a proponent of that move. Actually, most of you post is speculation. You have absolutely no evidence that Caldwell is being asked to "run someone else's system."

    Again you're putting so much emphasis on the "system" and not enough emphasis on "lack of talent." As evidenced by the playoffs, this general system can work just fine with the right players. Maybe it's not your cup of tea and that's fine, but it is certainly a viable system. In fact, with Joe's arm-strength and desire to get the ball downfield, it fits his skillset.




  7. #67
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens should heavily pursue a new OC and DC for 2014.

    many teams tried to convert to ZBS this year - including Pitt. It's got a lot of advantages if the players can get it down pat
    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




  8. #68
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens should heavily pursue a new OC and DC for 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by s.r.genovese View Post
    Caldwell was an offensive coach long before he ever met Tom Moore. I'm sure he had his own system before that. He certainly had his own system at Wake Forest. And for all we know this is it.

    There's no evidence that Harbs and Caldwell didn't collectively decide that ZBS would be effective and to hire Castillo. It's pure speculation that Caldwell wasn't a proponent of that move. Actually, most of you post is speculation. You have absolutely no evidence that Caldwell is being asked to "run someone else's system."

    Again you're putting so much emphasis on the "system" and not enough emphasis on "lack of talent." As evidenced by the playoffs, this general system can work just fine with the right players. Maybe it's not your cup of tea and that's fine, but it is certainly a viable system. In fact, with Joe's arm-strength and desire to get the ball downfield, it fits his skillset.
    Again, the system didn't work. Joe worked. The system is run first and the run was just average, as it had been in the playoffs since Harbaugh and Flacco got here. It worked, because Joe played out of his mind making chicken salad out of chicken shit, as he's constantly had to do since he got here. Constantly asking Joe to convert third and longs, throwing to WRs who barely get open, only AFTER the rush offense stalls. There isn't anymore evidence to show that the system will work come playoff time, if Joe doesn't have another 'Joe Montana' like performance.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  9. #69
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens should heavily pursue a new OC and DC for 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    many teams tried to convert to ZBS this year - including Pitt. It's got a lot of advantages if the players can get it down pat
    The point I was trying to make with that was that Castillo was Harbaugh's guy and that was Harbaugh's call. Posters can ask for evidence all they want, but we all know you aren't going to find concrete evidence for everything in this discussion.

    Why did we have the players saying that they wanted to go back to letting Joe have more control at the LOS, in a more up tempo offense? Why wasn't Caldwell allowed to continue to call that going into this season. Why did the players go to Harbaugh and tell him that they wanted to get back to more man blocking?

    When Cameron was here, players went to Harbaugh, specifically about Cameron. That's not happening now. They are going to Harbaugh about just about everything, other than the OC himself. Because Harbaugh is getting more involved than necessary.

    Some have talked about how one minute we wanted Harbaugh involved and now we're essentially hypocritical for wanting him to back off, without acknowledging the circumstances surrounding our desires. There was a clear riff between Cameron and Flacco. We wanted Harbaugh to step in and end it. He finally did, it just took him forever to do it. There is no such riff between Flacco and Caldwell, but Harbaugh has decided to step in, honestly, because he wanted to make sure things were done his way, instead of letting the OC coordinate in peace.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  10. #70

    Re: The Baltimore Ravens should heavily pursue a new OC and DC for 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    The word earlier this season was that John Harbaugh increased his level of input in the offense and that the players wanted to return to the style they used during the post-season, with Flacco having more control at the LOS. Harbaugh promised Montgomery a position, yet fired Jim Zorn, who was actually doing a good job with Flacco, when Cameron wanted him gone. When Cameron was here, he had more control and Harbaugh didn't step in, because Cameron's style meshed more with what Harbaugh wanted to do. It took him years to finally fire him.

    He even brings in Castillo to try running more zone blocking. Meanwhile, Caldwell didn't even get a chance to implement his style of Tom Moore's system. The idea that he's never called plays doesn't change the fact that he was under Moore. You tend to stay with the philosophy from under your coaching tree. Even if it didn't look like what was seen in Indianapolis, we still didn't get to see it, because Caldwell is still being asked to run someone else's system.

    No, Gary Kubiak would not struggle as much as Caldwell, because Kubiak's variation of the West Coast and rush offense does a significantly better job of scheming players open, instead of being so heavily dependent on every offensive player winning one on one matchups, something Greg Cosell and Ron Jaworski have both spoke about plenty.

    People are trying to use the team's success, almost as a reason as to why they should remain complacent with this outdated system, because it's worked in the past. Let me be clear, Joe Flacco had to go on a historic individual postseason run for them to win the Super Bowl. He shouldn't have to do that to win a Super Bowl. Do you pay the man to be capable of it? Yes, but to continue with the older system, while the front office continues to focus on other areas of the team before the offense, is essentially asking Joe Flacco to do that all over again if they want to win another Super Bowl.

    Only one drafted WR in the first three rounds since Joe has been here. No depth on the offensive line. I understand you can't have depth at every area, but no depth at Guard and Tackle? Knowing that KO was dealing with back issues and knowing that Yanda was recovering from surgery and knowing that McKinnie could not be trusted.

    No depth behind Pitta 'after' you trade Boldin. I don't mind you trading Boldin, but at least have some depth behind Pitta. There was nothing that Dickson showed for anyone to believe that he could adequately fill in, except looking at stats from two years ago (Where he still had issues dropping passes) and once again living in the past.

    The WRs still struggle against Man coverage, none of them make catches that aren't put right on them. The zone blocking was an inexplicable blunder by Harbaugh trying to outsmart himself, because he felt he had to step in with Cameron gone.

    There is very little with this system to help when the individual players struggle, which is where Kubiak's system would be a vast improvement. Kubiak's system would, at the very least, cut down on Flacco's pressures. I mean the man almost has to hold onto the ball, because WRs aren't getting open and most of the time they're all fifteen yards down the field. The system is too reliant on the run.

    The league has become a passing league and the Ravens are still living in the past. They can still run the ball, after it's set up with the pass, but no, they have to continuously stick to this running the ball mentality, when all it's going to do is darn near stall in the playoffs like it always does.

    If they had any of about 28 other QBs, they wouldn't have been able to get away with this as long as they have and it's not fair to Joe to keep asking him to keep turning chicken shit into chicken salad.
    Tom Moore ran the same system as Cam Cameron or should I say they go by the same philosophy which is the air corydell. There is a reason why Dallas Clark said that the system the ravens run isn't much different from the colts atleast when he was a colt. The only big difference from that era and now is that they had a much better offensive line protecting their quarterback, one of the best quarterbacks in the league to read defenses and call the right audibles to make plays, great route runners in Marvin Harrison and Reggie wayne, and their run game was better.

    The ravens right now don't have a solid offensive line in pass protection and run blocking, their receivers are not great runners, their run game isn't very good, and Flacco is one of the best quarterbacks in the league but he's ability to read defensives isn't at the level of Peyton Manning atleast not yet.

    I don't get why you had to point out the lack of depth behind Pitta as if every team in the league has solid depth behind every position . There was no way in the world have known Pitta was going to be hurt and Dickson may have had his problems but he still was a third round pick whom unfortunately had a bad year last year and was dealing with injuries. He had issues with catching the ball but it wasn't that bad as it is now. The ravens couldn't have not known in the future that K.O would have back problems and yes Marshal Yanda had to have surgery during the offseason but he did not miss the first game or any game this year.

    John Harbaugh bought in Castillo and some ravens fans consistently believe it was to help out a buddy or to keep the offense under Harbaugh control( some called it conservative offense). I think it's ridiculous to believe such things are true but if people want to continue to believe such things then please review Castillo track record as a offense line coach and tell me why wouldn't it have been a good move? Castillo was a offensive line coach when the eagles quarterback was only sacked 20 times for a season along with having a top 5 rushing attack. Please tell me when was the last time Flacco was only sack 20 times ? how long has it been since the ravens had a top 5 rushing attack?. If i'm John Harbaugh then Im going to hire Castillo because we all know a well protected Flacco is a dangerous quarterback especially with a great rushing attack .

    The offensive line indeed had trouble adjusting to Castillo teachings and honestly I still don't blame Harbaugh for hiring Castillo. The zone blocking scheme isn't really something new to the ravens offensive line and they been using it ever since Vonta Leach became a raven.

    I thought for sure I read some where that said the colts offense during Peyton Manning era wasn't really complex as people thought it was. Their offense really ran pretty basic stuff but their goal was to make basic stuff look beyond basic by keeping the defense guessing . I think that's kinda how Derrick Mason was able to be so successful with the comeback routes because he was so good at making opposing cornerbacks think he was going to do one thing but do another which is the same basic route over again.
    Last edited by Jazz1988; 12-21-2013 at 10:11 PM.




  11. #71
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens should heavily pursue a new OC and DC for 2014.

    Seriously, why does this team still feel that they have to use the run to set up the pass. This team lacks so much creativity and vision offensively and their system is universally considered archaic. When the talent breaks down, there's no out in this system. None. What, a few crossing patterns? There are plenty of teams doing a good job of using the pass to set up the run. New England has about three different backs that can go for 100 yards. And what about Denver? Knowshon Moreno? Are you kidding me? Knowshon More prone to get hurt and fumble when he's healthy?

    And another thing, just because Flacco's strength is throwing deep doesn't mean that he's a one dimensional QB certainly doesn't mean that he can't develop his short passing skill. Kubiak can come over with his system, while maintaining vertical elements, much like what McCarthy has going on in Green Bay. It's so bad that it's almost pointless to draft certain WRs, because they just don't fit the system.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  12. #72
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens should heavily pursue a new OC and DC for 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz1988 View Post
    Tom Moore ran the same system as Cam Cameron or should I say they go by the same philosophy which is the air corydell. There is a reason why Dallas Clark said that the system the ravens run isn't much different from the colts atleast when he was a colt. The only big difference from that era and now is that they had a much better offensive line protecting their quarterback, one of the best quarterbacks in the league to read defenses and call the right audibles to make plays, great route runners in Marvin Harrison and Reggie wayne, and their run game was better.

    The ravens right now don't have a solid offensive line in pass protection and run blocking, their receivers are not great route runners, their run game isn't very good, and Flacco is one of the best quarterbacks in the league but he's ability to read defensives isn't at the level of Peyton Manning atleast not yet.

    I don't get why you had to point out the lack of depth behind Pitta as if every team in the league has solid depth behind every position . There was no way in the world the ravens could have known Pitta was going to be hurt and Dickson may have had his problems but he still was a third round pick whom unfortunately had a bad year last year and was dealing with a injuries. He had issues with catching the ball but it wasn't that bad as it is now; The ravens couldn't have not known in the future that K.O would have back problems and yes Marshal Yanda had to have surgery during the offseason but he did not miss the first game or any game this year.

    John Harbaugh bought in Castillo and some ravens fans consistently believe it was to help out a buddy or to keep the offense under Harbaugh control( some called it conservative offense). I think it's ridiculous to believe that such things are true but if people want to continue to believe such things then please review Castillo track record as a offense line coach and tell me why wouldn't it have been a good move? Castillo was a offensive line coach when the eagles quarterback was only sacked 20 times for a season with a top 5 rushing attack. Please telling when was the last time Flacco was only sack 20 times ? how long has it been since the ravens had a top 5 rushing attack?. If i'm John Harbaugh then Im going to hire Castillo because we all know a well protected Flacco is a dangerous quarterback especially with a great rushing attack .

    The offensive line indeed had trouble adjusting to Castillo way of teachings and honestly I still don't blame Harbaugh for hiring Castillo. The zone blocking scheme isn't really something new to the ravens offensive line and they been using it ever since Vonta Leach became a raven.

    I thought for sure I read some where that said the colts offense during Peyton Manning era wasn't really complex as people thought it was. Their offense really ran pretty basic stuff but their goal was to make basic stuff look beyond basic by keeping the defense guessing . I think that's kinda how Derrick Mason was able to be so successful with the comeback routes because he was so good at making opposing cornerbacks think he was going to do one thing but do another which is the same basic route over again.
    You are right, Peyton's offense was not complex.

    Again, my point with Castillo is that Harbaugh pushed that instead of letting Caldwell handle the offense. He had little problem firing Zorn for Cameron, when Cameron didn't want him here anymore, even though Zorn was doing a good job with Flacco that year. Yet, he's promising assistants jobs and bringing in other guys to run things now? Why couldn't he leave Caldwell alone the way he left Cameron?

    Once they traded Boldin, Pitta represented their only quality target over the middle of the field. Their ONLY legitimate target over the middle of the field. They had to know they were one injury away from near disaster.

    Osemele's back issues were known last year, because he dealt with them last year as well. This was nothing new. They had to know that Yanda was going to need time to get back into a rhythm following the surgery, whether he missed games or not. Honestly, he still isn't right.

    The focus to make Peyton's passing attack the most deadly in the league, far exceeded such focus here in Baltimore. Peyton had Marvin Harrison, Brandon Stokely, another quality TE before Dallas Clark, Reggie Wayne and, as you mentioned, one of the best offensive lines out there, but it was to throw first, it wasn't to be a better running team first and foremost.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  13. #73
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens should heavily pursue a new OC and DC for 2014.

    They made sure they had safeties on top of safeties. Defensive linemen on top of defensive linemen, like they always do. And what always happens, the defense has to carry the weight and we have to hear about how the offense isn't getting it done. It's the same old song and dance. The offense just needs 'a piece here' and 'a piece there' and never truly gets over the top, because it's an afterthought and everybody knows it.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens should heavily pursue a new OC and DC for 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    Seriously, why does this team still feel that they have to use the run to set up the pass.
    They really haven't tried to do that since about week 5 of this season. Harbs and Caldwell said as much.




  15. #75
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    Re: The Baltimore Ravens should heavily pursue a new OC and DC for 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    Again, the system didn't work. Joe worked.
    So when things go well, it's all because of Joe and when things go poorly it's all because of the "system?" Is that about right? Sounds like sound logic.

    It's just as likely that the reason Joe went on his "Montana-like run" was in part because of the playcalling and concepts that Caldwell brought to the table the talent on the team was much better than utilized Cam did. This elevated the play of Joe as well as Boldin. Hence why their numbers went through the roof during that time when compared to their averages with the Ravens.

    Or I guess you can choose to believe it was just a coincidence that Joe went on a "Montana-like run" right when Caldwell took control of the offense.
    Last edited by s.r.genovese; 12-21-2013 at 10:59 PM.




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