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Thread: TE or WR

  1. #13

    Re: TE or WR



    I'm pretty sure that ASJ won't be a Raven. Think about it...Harbs doesn't put up with vets with questionable attitudes and that underperform, so he certainly won't put up with a rookie's IMO.

    While on the other hand (and we can talk any talent/technique issues), but via the interviews/media segments I've seen, Ebron comes across as hard-working, jocular, "constant improvement" kind of guy. He would be a much better fit with our HC and locker room IMO.

    A bit OT here, but I think Jimmy represents the ceiling of personal risk for our club...but remember, his on-field performance was stellar and rivaled Patrick Peterson, according to a few. Also remember that we were also (gasp!) desperate for CB in 2011, and I think the fact that Jimmy actually earned his degree (sociology in 2010), and was incident-free for his last two college seasons probably contributed to a go-decision on him. Of course, he was fully vetted in general with the "character sheet" that he was lugging around. If there's concern that ASJ or anyone else loafs on the field, I can't see us drafting him...even if he's squeaky clean.
    Back to the AFCCG we go. So get ready!

    Team MVP to-date: Rick Wagner and C.J. Mosley (tie)

    Having fun talking football on Twitter @BigPlayReceiver




  2. #14
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    Re: TE or WR

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizerooskie View Post
    FWIW, I hate Coleman as a prospect (and Moncrief). High bust potential, IMO. Not a huge fan of Abbrederis either.
    I'm not big on Montcrief or Coleman either, but I do like Abbrederis. I think he is very similar to Brian Hartline.
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  3. #15

    Re: TE or WR

    Quote Originally Posted by BigPlayReceiver View Post
    I'm pretty sure that ASJ won't be a Raven. Think about it...Harbs doesn't put up with vets with questionable attitudes and that underperform, so he certainly won't put up with a rookie's IMO.

    While on the other hand (and we can talk any talent/technique issues), but via the interviews/media segments I've seen, Ebron comes across as hard-working, jocular, "constant improvement" kind of guy. He would be a much better fit with our HC and locker room IMO.

    A bit OT here, but I think Jimmy represents the ceiling of personal risk for our club...but remember, his on-field performance was stellar and rivaled Patrick Peterson, according to a few. Also remember that we were also (gasp!) desperate for CB in 2011, and I think the fact that Jimmy actually earned his degree (sociology in 2010), and was incident-free for his last two college seasons probably contributed to a go-decision on him. Of course, he was fully vetted in general with the "character sheet" that he was lugging around. If there's concern that ASJ or anyone else loafs on the field, I can't see us drafting him...even if he's squeaky clean.
    I don't know how much I buy the "loafer" designation for ASJ. He certainly isn't a "plus" blocking effort guy, but very, very few TEs coming out of college are; certainly Amaro and Ebron are also not in that category either. Washington became a run-first offense this year and they asked ASJ to block much, much more than he ever did before. His blocking improved a lot this year, but his receiving statistics dropped commensurately.

    I don't really see clear indicators of loafing from what I've seen on tape. Maybe I'm missing something. ASJ is not the first college player to have tension with his coaching staff, especially when that coaching staff asked him to step out of his element in a way that would clearly hurt his draft stock. The DUI is also a factor, of course, and his continuing character will have to check out during the pre-draft process.

    The bottom line IMO is that given all these factors, ASJ will probably be a 2nd round pick. He'd be a clear 1st rounder on talent alone if not for these concerns. I would take him in the 2nd round in a heartbeat and frankly, I'd prefer ASJ in the 2nd over Ebron or (ugh) Amaro in the 1st just based on positional/marginal value.




  4. #16

    Re: TE or WR

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    I don't know how much I buy the "loafer" designation for ASJ. He certainly isn't a "plus" blocking effort guy, but very, very few TEs coming out of college are; certainly Amaro and Ebron are also not in that category either. Washington became a run-first offense this year and they asked ASJ to block much, much more than he ever did before. His blocking improved a lot this year, but his receiving statistics dropped commensurately.

    I don't really see clear indicators of loafing from what I've seen on tape. Maybe I'm missing something. ASJ is not the first college player to have tension with his coaching staff, especially when that coaching staff asked him to step out of his element in a way that would clearly hurt his draft stock. The DUI is also a factor, of course, and his continuing character will have to check out during the pre-draft process.

    The bottom line IMO is that given all these factors, ASJ will probably be a 2nd round pick. He'd be a clear 1st rounder on talent alone if not for these concerns. I would take him in the 2nd round in a heartbeat and frankly, I'd prefer ASJ in the 2nd over Ebron or (ugh) Amaro in the 1st just based on positional/marginal value.
    Not sure if he's a loafer either. I haven't read anything definitive or from multiple sources. I included the "if" at the end of my post, not sure how I left it off the top. My apologies.

    The only negative [trend] that I know about him is his statistical decline...which you hit on and explained; which I can believe.

    Ebron is a big WR that can lock on and block somebody. Came to UNC as a DE IIRC. He has excellent feet and has had a boatload of snaps from the slot. He's a long strider with excellent vertical explosion and radius. I think that with his athleticism, you could swap Marlon and Ebron out-wide or slotted at-will. I couldn't completely embrace Ebron earlier in the season b/c he displayed inconsistent hands. Did he correct that? I haven't charted all of his film. Otherwise, I think he'll be a Combine Commando and get some early 2nd round love from a team with an imaginative OC.
    Back to the AFCCG we go. So get ready!

    Team MVP to-date: Rick Wagner and C.J. Mosley (tie)

    Having fun talking football on Twitter @BigPlayReceiver




  5. #17
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    Re: TE or WR

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    I don't know how much I buy the "loafer" designation for ASJ. He certainly isn't a "plus" blocking effort guy, but very, very few TEs coming out of college are; certainly Amaro and Ebron are also not in that category either. Washington became a run-first offense this year and they asked ASJ to block much, much more than he ever did before. His blocking improved a lot this year, but his receiving statistics dropped commensurately.

    I don't really see clear indicators of loafing from what I've seen on tape. Maybe I'm missing something. ASJ is not the first college player to have tension with his coaching staff, especially when that coaching staff asked him to step out of his element in a way that would clearly hurt his draft stock. The DUI is also a factor, of course, and his continuing character will have to check out during the pre-draft process.

    The bottom line IMO is that given all these factors, ASJ will probably be a 2nd round pick. He'd be a clear 1st rounder on talent alone if not for these concerns. I would take him in the 2nd round in a heartbeat and frankly, I'd prefer ASJ in the 2nd over Ebron or (ugh) Amaro in the 1st just based on positional/marginal value.
    He's a pretty good blocker now, but not quite the athlete Ebron or Amaro are. His playing personality is quite concerning just watching him on film. But yes, I too would take him in the 2nd.




  6. #18
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    Re: TE or WR

    Quote Originally Posted by BigPlayReceiver View Post
    Not sure if he's a loafer either. I haven't read anything definitive or from multiple sources. I included the "if" at the end of my post, not sure how I left it off the top. My apologies.

    The only negative [trend] that I know about him is his statistical decline...which you hit on and explained; which I can believe.

    Ebron is a big WR that can lock on and block somebody. Came to UNC as a DE IIRC. He has excellent feet and has had a boatload of snaps from the slot. He's a long strider with excellent vertical explosion and radius. I think that with his athleticism, you could swap Marlon and Ebron out-wide or slotted at-will. I couldn't completely embrace Ebron earlier in the season b/c he displayed inconsistent hands. Did he correct that? I haven't charted all of his film. Otherwise, I think he'll be a Combine Commando and get some early 2nd round love from a team with an imaginative OC.
    Your take on Amaro?




  7. #19
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    Cool Re: TE or WR

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Well, agree to disagree on scheme...our offensive design sucks.

    However, I agree about OL/DL. I def think the Ravens need a legitimate #1 receiver or at least another #1/2 borderline guy like Torrey. I just think the value is there at OT or G.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Sorry Wicked if my prior email gave the impression that I didn't think either our offensive scheme or our offensive coaching were possibly a major problem with the Raven's offense (or lack thereof) for this year. Both offensive scheme and coaching have definitely been a serious issue. My apologies!

    I just get tired of some of the comments on the forums (not you) that if the scheme changes and the coaches either (1) change their coaching to match the new scheme or (2) they get replaced by new coaches who can successfully coach the new scheme then we will suddenly have a high flying offense. I don't think so. It would possibly improve but there would still be major problems with the OL, TE, receivers and even with the RBs.

    Fortunately, this draft appears, for once, to be loaded with OTs, WRs, OGs and even some OK talent at TE and RB. I might be frustrated with the Offense this year but I'm also excited with the offensive draft prospects for next year.

    Draft time in May is going to be exciting (even if the Ravens decide to go DL or ILB instead)!




  8. #20
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    Re: TE or WR

    I've already covered this before, but I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with the scheme we're running. We won a SB playing this style, we simply lacked certain players to run the offense effectively. When you consider losing a very good vet C in Matt Birk and strating a 2nd year 4th rd pick out of Delaware, your go to guy over the middle in Boldin, and your safety blanket in Dennis Pitta, your offense is going to suffer no matter what scheme you run. Not to mention the fact that Ray Rice has regressed, it also appears that the offensive line as a whole and Bernard Pierce regressed too. I think people would rather blame the coaches and scheme before the players, and to a certain extent I would agree that certain coaches on the offensive side of the ball need replacing, and the blocking scheme change earlier in the year, really effected the offensive line, I still to this day cannot fathom out why we changed a blocking formula that worked so well in the play offs.

    This offense needs guys who can go over the middle and make catches, and its only really now that we have anybody who can do that with Pitta back, and Marlon brown getting better with each game. I'd keep this offensive scheme going forward, it just needs more play makers, and consistency.




  9. #21

    Re: TE or WR

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    Your take on Amaro?
    I've only taken one pass at Amaro so far. Stats aside, I'm not seeing the high performance player and athlete, I'd thought I'd see. His route running is average as are his hands (though many of his catches aren't aggressively contested) and I question his effort away from the ball.

    I've seen good straight line speed...long striding, as expected. He could stand to be a lot more physical across his game, but I will say that his perimeter blocking should be an asset in the NFL...just lock and "hold" on. In-line though, he'll need to work to improve like just about all pass-catching college TEs. He's had a ton of snaps in the slot, which (like Ebron) is a bonus.

    Is he at or near the very top of the TE class? Based upon who I've watched, yes...but I'm not seeing a lock on first round value. As I watch Amaro (Ebron as well), I think of the Pitta and Hernandez's college tape (both of which were outstanding), and Amaro's tape is not even close. Different systems, I know, but the former two were taken in the 4th round. Certainly, Amaro's physical attributes and potential are attractive and exciting, but at this time, I can't comply with the national group-think on slapping 1st round value on him.
    Back to the AFCCG we go. So get ready!

    Team MVP to-date: Rick Wagner and C.J. Mosley (tie)

    Having fun talking football on Twitter @BigPlayReceiver




  10. #22

    Re: TE or WR

    When Jimmy was drafted he had his share of red flags too, but the Ravens seem to have straightened him out.




  11. #23

    Re: TE or WR

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasticfury View Post
    When Jimmy was drafted he had his share of red flags too, but the Ravens seem to have straightened him out.
    Very true.

    I starting looking into the TE class again to break out the possible fits for a Kubiak offense. So about that fit...

    Kubiak got 318 / 3730 / 31 out of his TEs over the past three seasons.
    None of HOU's TEs are consistently good blockers.
    Joel Dreessen was a good FA pick up for them at TE. He was their best run blocker by far. He is 6'4 243. He's in DEN now.
    Two current TEs, Owen Daniels and Garrett Graham are both from Wisconsin.
    Only one drafted, contributing TE (rookie Ryan Griffin from UConn) can be categorized as big...6'6.
    Daniels (6'3 249): 4.65, 23 reps, 34.5 vert, 4.11 and 6.88 agility times. He was drafted in the 4th.
    Graham (6'3 243): 4.71, 20 reps, 34.5 vert, 4.35 and 7.01 agility times. Drafted in the 4th.
    Griffin (6'6 254): 4.87, 21 reps, 34.5 vert, 4.43 and 7.01 agility times. Drafted in the 6th.

    Wisconsin prospect Jacob Pederson is 6'3 242.
    http://draftbreakdown.com/players/jacob-pedersen/

    James Casey, now with PHL, is 6'3 240. He combined at 4.66, 28 reps, 36 vert, 4.48 and 7.00 agility times. He was drafted in the 5th.

    TE size appears to be a strong trend. Wisconsin is just a coincidence. I don't see any connection between either Kubiak, Shanahan, or Dennison and Bret Bielema (Wisconsin's HC at the time of Daniels and Graham being drafted).

    By no means would I say ASJ, CJF and Amaro won't be drafted if that's who we want, but for an easy physical reference, it's not unreasonable to expect "Pitta-clones" to be targeted in May. This would include Eric Ebron (6'4 245), but he's going off the Board early, which in itself would buck the "HOU/Kubiak" trend of taking TE's in the middle-late rounds.
    Back to the AFCCG we go. So get ready!

    Team MVP to-date: Rick Wagner and C.J. Mosley (tie)

    Having fun talking football on Twitter @BigPlayReceiver




  12. #24

    Re: TE or WR

    BigPlayReceiver, you seem to be the board's go to guy on evaluating pass catchers. After reading some of your analysis I can see why. You do it at a very thorough, educated level. Now that I've kissed up enough, I'd be very interested in your take on several of the mid round TE prospects, as well as a dark horse or two.

    I strongly feel the Ravens will pick a TE in the draft, but just as strongly feel it won't be Ebron or Amaro unless one of them maybe falls to our spot in the 2nd round. Therefore, I think it will be between the 3rd and 5th rounds. Considering the lack of depth at the position in this draft, I'd be interested in your impressions of Troy Niklas (he may even go higher than round 3), Arthur Lynch and Crockett Gillmore. I've cooled on CJF some.

    Also, do you see any late round guys who could be real dark horses to become good NFL players, like Xavier Grimble or Colt Lyerla? Is there even enough tape to adequately offer an opinion on them? I know there are character concerns with Lyerla, but is there enough there to warrant a late round flyer or an UDFA contract? I just feel that there's a hidden gem out there somewhere.

    I guess all of the above must now be considered in the context of whether or not they'd be a fit in a Kubiak designed offense. Thanks for your feedback when you get a chance. Also, anybody else feel free to chime in too. This isn't meant to just be a PM to BPR. Just wanted to read his opinion, as well as any others.




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