Browns, Colts, Ravens question

**CincyCat** · 11-15-2013, 10:37 PM

What is harder, being a Colts replacement team fan or being a "New Browns" fan? I ask this only because I knew if the Bengals didn't get the stadium deal they wanted they could have easily become the Baltimore Bengals or the Cleveland Bengals. I was terrified.

I doubt we would have ever attracted a new team. If we had, it would be hard for me to imagine rooting against my former team. Any thoughts?

**TCmofo** · 11-15-2013, 10:52 PM

I was born in '79 so the Colts were gone by the time I started paying attention to football...so I didn't care about the Colts moving. I really don't hold ill will towards Indy, but the colors/team name should have stayed in Baltimore. As far as the Browns moving to Baltimore...well, it was a necessary evil. The prior NFL commish just flat out didn't want Charm City to have a team, I mean Jacksonville got a team and we all have seen how they support their team down there. The Browns got to keep their team records/colors/tradition AND got their team back pretty quick, no biggy.

The Ravens have just always been the Ravens to me. As time goes on you hear less and less about the new Browns jokes. This franchise and city have carved out their own niche with a rabid fan base....football and crab cakes, it's what we do.

**Beau Petard** · 11-15-2013, 11:01 PM

Cincy-
Old fart here! ;)

The BALTIMORE Colts were my team, then, now and forever. Since they NO LONGER EXIST, I have only fond memories. The indy franchise is ne'er a substitute or evolution for me.

The Baltimore Ravens are my "new" team, and FWIW, the evolution of the BALTIMORE Colts.

The Cleveland Browns, were, and will always be, the Cleveland Browns. Their best running back was Jim Brown. Their best quarterback was NOT Johnny Unitas, just as the indy franchise has no legacy to him as THEIR best QB - Peyton Manning is the indy franchise's best QB.

Tagliabue can suck my ass.

Please forward any questions or lack of understanding to me at BALTIMOREColtsforeverandIndyKMA.com! ;)

**Beerracuda** · 11-15-2013, 11:56 PM

Some people like to compare our situation with Cleveland's. In fact, they're nothing alike. Yes, both cities have relocated teams, but that's where the comparisons end. Baltimore's team was stolen in the middle of the night by a lying sack of shit owner. Baltimore had to give up all rights to their team name and history, and was even prevented by the NFL from calling our Canadian Football League the "Baltimore Colts", and we were insulted by Tagliabue during the expansion process by telling us to go "Build a museum" instead of trying to get a football team, telling us that Baltimore couldn't support a team so close to Washington. Cleveland was told during their 1995 season that they would be moving at the conclusion of that season. They also got to keep their team name, colors, and history. They were also guaranteed by the NFL a new expansion team within 3 years, and were granted numerous draft picks as compensation.

Despite all that goodwill by the NFL, the Browns have only had 1 playoff game since their re-emergence, and have played to a pathetic 77-156 (33.0%) record. Baltimore took a struggling franchise and have since won 2 Super Bowls, several division titles, and are an annual playoff contender (21 playoff games in the last 13 years), compiling a very respectable 154-126-1 (54.8%) record over the years. Additionally, they have sold out every game in their existence.

So much for comparisons.

So no, it's not difficult being a replacement team's fan. However, it's still infuriating to know that Baltimore was robbed of their football heritage, which continues to this day. In the next few decades, when we old-time Colts fans all die out, future generations won't know much more about the Baltimore Colts then the fact that they moved to Indy in 1984. They'll be not much more than a footnote, which should piss off any decent Baltimore football fan.

**AirFlacco** · 11-15-2013, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by CincyCat

What is harder, being a Colts replacement team fan or being a "New Browns" fan? I ask this only because I knew if the Bengals didn't get the stadium deal they wanted they could have easily become the Baltimore Bengals or the Cleveland Bengals. I was terrified.

I doubt we would have ever attracted a new team. If we had, it would be hard for me to imagine rooting against my former team. Any thoughts?

Nah, Mike Brown was never coming here or anywhere. He visited here and left the plane running in the airport. It was like now you see me, now you don't. Brown is the cheapest owner in the NFL and didn't have the balls to do anything. Art was the only owner powerful enough to run thru Tags and Jack Kent Cooke to here.

A lot of old Colts fans didn't pick up the Ravens because they were ashamed of stealing the Browns after all the bitching we did about losing the Colts. We were 2-bit whores but Tags made us do it so I have no remorse about stealing another team. Had Tags done the right thing, he would have given expansion teams to St Louis and Baltimore. The Browns would still be in Cleaveland and the Rams would still be in LA. It's a disgrace that the NFL doesn't have a team in the 2d largest market.

Besides the old Colts fans feeling guilty there were tons of old Colts fans that became Squeelers fans after the Colts left. Problem was, they never rooted for the Ravens when they arrived so that made the rivalry even more bitter seeing their piss stained jerseys all over town.

But I was happy just to have a team and be back in the NFL. I didn't support the CFL because it was minor league. It was the NFL or nothing for me.

I just didn't like the name Ravens when they held the name contest. Too pussy for a football team and that cartoonist logo is even worse but the Sun rammed that name down our throats. They ran a big contest but did a big PR job to get the name. In fact, men named their daughters Raven but when the Colts were here they named their sons Colt, a really cool name. I

Hell, 90% of Ravens fans never read the poem or know who Poe was until the name came up. I read the poem as a Toastmasters assignment and nobody in the room ever read it including several officers at APG.

But I'm just thankful to be back in and we have 2 trophies plus one from
the Colts and all the other titles when they were here.

Not bad, after losing a team for 12 years.

**RavenScallywag** · 11-16-2013, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by CincyCat

What is harder, being a Colts replacement team fan or being a "New Browns" fan? I ask this only because I knew if the Bengals didn't get the stadium deal they wanted they could have easily become the Baltimore Bengals or the Cleveland Bengals. I was terrified.

I doubt we would have ever attracted a new team. If we had, it would be hard for me to imagine rooting against my former team. Any thoughts?

We've had long debates about that...do you still root for the home team (Thus how the Redskins gained at least a few fans in the 1984-1996 period)? Do you follow your club to a new state/city? Do you pick some arbitrary 3rd option?

In my case, it's a moot argument, as I was only 6 months old when the Colts left. My childhood was mostly void of football, save for watching a few Super Bowls and leeching onto some SB appearing teams (Redskins, Bills, Cowboys mainly). I followed the CFL Colts when they were here, and a few years later, I began following the Ravens.

The WAY the Colts left, it became very easy to wash your hands of the franchise. We wanted the name, the colors, the records. But we wanted no more part of Bob Irsay. That is basically the deal that Browns fans got. Art Modell moved the Browns, but he left the name, colors, and records behind. So for a Browns fan, you essentially just had 3 years of your team being inactive.

**RavenScallywag** · 11-16-2013, 01:12 AM

There are really only two gripes the city of Cleveland and Browns fans can levy against the deal they got...

#1 - Ozzie Newsome didn't stay with the Browns
#2 - The trade that brought us Ray Lewis was made by the Browns in 1995

If you ever want to see a great piece of story about that time, watch "Cleveland 95: A Football Life". It's a VERY informative piece about what was being built in Cleveland up to the move. LOTS of future talent on that team: Newsome, Pioli, Mike Tannenbaum, Phil Savage, Mike Lombardi, Mangini, Dimitrioff, Jim Schwartz, Nick Saban, Kirk Ferentz. A lot of them believed had the move not been made, Cleveland would've won a Super Bowl in 95 or 96.

**wickedsolo** · 11-16-2013, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by CincyCat

What is harder, being a Colts replacement team fan or being a "New Browns" fan? I ask this only because I knew if the Bengals didn't get the stadium deal they wanted they could have easily become the Baltimore Bengals or the Cleveland Bengals. I was terrified.

I doubt we would have ever attracted a new team. If we had, it would be hard for me to imagine rooting against my former team. Any thoughts?

I was born in 1982 and while my grandparents did take me to a Colts game at memorial stadium I was maybe 1 year old or so. No memories of it other than photos.

Hearing all of my grandparent's stories about the old Colts was really great.

My dad was from Falls Church, VA so I kind of grew up on the Redskins until the Ravens came to Baltimore in 96. I was heading into high school and I played linebacker, so Ray Lewis was an instant favorite of mine.

I don't think either situation warrants any kind of negative feelings (unless you talk to an old timer who was a die hard Colts fan) because it doesn't really matter at this point anyway. The Ravens have two Super Bowl trophies in 16 seasons and shirt of two or three seasons we have been in the playoff race every year. And that is against a very, very tough conference and division. We really can't complain at all.

I feel somewhat bad for Brown's fans because Art moved the franchise and within four years he had done what Cleveland hadn't since the 1964 season: win it all.

I don't feel THAT bad though because they got their team back within a couple of seasons and Art Modell was kind enough to leave the Browns franchise name and history in Cleveland.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**NC Raven** · 11-16-2013, 09:42 AM

I was 13 or 14 when they left. Spent a lot of Sundays out at Memorial Stadium with my dad, at 8.50 a ticket or whatever it was back then!

There was no way to actually follow the Colts, or any other team with any consistency, as TV wasn't much in those days. I couldn't bear to watch them myself, and just hearing the name Indianapolis Colts made me violently angry. Didn't help that I was a teenager.

Anyway, you could only watch who was on, and that was just the 2-3 network games in the afternoon and Monday Night Football. So it would go from the exciting offenses of Dan Marino and Dan Fouts, to the killer defense of the Bears, etc. Then the precision of the Niners and Montana and Rice... etc. You watched what was on and learned to appreciate it.

I think a lot of us just kept up with the sport itself, and those years just focused on different teams and players, with no real rooting interest, I think helped make a generation of us more objective fans once the Ravens came along. The tone of this board is a lot less Homer than a lot of other teams' boards. I see more objectivity with our fan base than most others, although we certainly have our fair share of "Fire Harbaugh" and"bench Flacco" types every time there's a turnover or... a loss.

**Beerracuda** · 11-16-2013, 10:24 AM

There was no way to actually follow the Colts, or any other team with any consistency, as TV wasn't much in those days.

It's important to point out to younger fans on here that one of the main reasons the Colts weren't televised very often is because of the city's archaic law forbidding the start of the football game before 2:00 pm, which shut us out of the network schedule.

**Ravens2006** · 11-16-2013, 10:26 AM

Most of my Colts memories seem to be listening to them on the radio. I was 8 or 9 when they moved. Remember vividly going to outings my mom had planned on Sundays, and dad and I disappearing to the car to listen to the game. :)

I was all in favor of the expansion goals... didn't care for taking another city's team... etc. Then when the expansion farce was over, and especially with what happened with Jacksonville (dropping out; the rally in JAX where a few hundred showed up; Tags forcing them back in; etc)... and Baltimore and St. Louis were passed over despite MUCH better deals... I no longer cared. Realized that expansion was fixed from the outset. Baltimore and St. Louis were used to up the ante for "new markets", and as a side-effect, one which Tagliabue didn't care for but also couldn't stop... they put packages together that existing franchise owners found too appealing to pass up and/or give to new owners.

The league created the situation that unfolded. The owners as a whole actually encouraged the situation that unfolded. I just don't think many of them REALLY thought that Modell would be one to jump on an opportunity. I no longer cared about doing it "the right way" because the league didn't reward those who TRIED to do it "the right way".

And the always ignored aspect of the whole deal... Lerner was previously a player in Baltimore's expansion bid, knew all the players in Baltimore, knew the MD Stadium Authority inside and out, knew all the details and the numbers, and then as part owner of the Browns... was actually the one that kick-started Modell's interest. Then he rode back in to Cleveland on a white horse as the savoir. Comical. Absolutely comical.

The whole thing was an ugly drug deal...

**Loco Ravens Fan** · 11-16-2013, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by AirFlacco

Nah, Mike Brown was never coming here or anywhere. He visited here and left the plane running in the airport. It was like now you see me, now you don't. Brown is the cheapest owner in the NFL and didn't have the balls to do anything. Art was the only owner powerful enough to run thru Tags and Jack Kent Cooke to here.

A lot of old Colts fans didn't pick up the Ravens because they were ashamed of stealing the Browns after all the bitching we did about losing the Colts. We were 2-bit whores but Tags made us do it so I have no remorse about stealing another team. Had Tags done the right thing, he would have given expansion teams to St Louis and Baltimore. The Browns would still be in Cleaveland and the Rams would still be in LA. It's a disgrace that the NFL doesn't have a team in the 2d largest market.

Besides the old Colts fans feeling guilty there were tons of old Colts fans that became Squeelers fans after the Colts left. Problem was, they never rooted for the Ravens when they arrived so that made the rivalry even more bitter seeing their piss stained jerseys all over town.

But I was happy just to have a team and be back in the NFL. I didn't support the CFL because it was minor league. It was the NFL or nothing for me.

I just didn't like the name Ravens when they held the name contest. Too pussy for a football team and that cartoonist logo is even worse but the Sun rammed that name down our throats. They ran a big contest but did a big PR job to get the name. In fact, men named their daughters Raven but when the Colts were here they named their sons Colt, a really cool name. I

Hell, 90% of Ravens fans never read the poem or know who Poe was until the name came up. I read the poem as a Toastmasters assignment and nobody in the room ever read it including several officers at APG.

But I'm just thankful to be back in and we have 2 trophies plus one from
the Colts and all the other titles when they were here.

Not bad, after losing a team for 12 years.

AGREE! Also, Ravens' fans remember that painful NFL expansion process when Baltimore's bid was so above Jacksonville's bid that the creepy commissioner gave Jacksonville an extension to up their bid. And then same commissioner with Jack Kent Cooke tried to force the Deadskins on Baltimore by trying to get local approval to build his stadium in Laurel near or at the Laurel Race Track before he settled for a Jack Kent Cooke Stadium in Raljon... Landover. If a stadium in the Laurel area deal had gone through, it's not likely Baltimore gets any relocated franchise being so close to a Deadskins stadium in Laurel!