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Thread: Ted Cruz

  1. #16
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    Re: Ted Cruz



    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    This is what I was responding to: "Christians can believe whatever they want...I just don't think any government has the right or authority to tell us who we can and cannot marry."

    So if government doesn't have the authority to tell us who we can and cannot marry then I can marry more than 1 woman, or man.

    I know a few gay couples and take no issue with them. I believe marriage is a special institution for the purpose of forming families. Getting benefits and whatever is not a good reason to allow people to marry. We can change the nature of how benefits are supplied.
    Christians are really who had/have the biggest issue with same-sex marriages. Because Christians make up a majority of the population in America (votes! votes! votes!) politicians pander to the Christian right and this is one of the topics that they constantly beat the drum on hoping that it will get them votes. It doesn't have anything to do with the law. It has everything to do with them letting their religion (right or wrong) get in the way and steer their philosophy/thoughts. My mother in-law is a devout Catholic and she has no problem with gay couples or same sex marriages. However, she has a HUGE problem with calling them marriages. I mean, it is just such a silly thing to get upset about and it is even sillier to let it be a root cause for voting one way or the other (not that you are/have).

    That's why I said what I said. I have a hard time respecting politicians who pander to a specific group of people in order to win votes. Ted Cruz's background is one that does not support or believe in same sex marriages and now it isn't anywhere mentioned on his website. Because Cruz is Libertarian in a lot of ways, I would have a lot more respect for him if he just came out and said something along the lines of he doesn't believe in it because of his religion, but he thinks that it isn't any of the government's business. That's all.

    The basic definition of "marrying" is to take two separate things and joining them together. I can marry two pieces of wood with nails and glue. I can marry multiple thoughts together with a well formulated sentence.
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  2. #17
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    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    I actually don't have an issue with any of that. I don't have an issue with gays marrying except that as a Christian it will become an issue. Actually it already has, Christian businesses that do not want to be involved in gay marriage are forced to, such as Christian photographers being forced to take wedding pictures. Yeah, I know, churches are excluded, etc. It won't be long before Christian churches are required to marry gay couples.
    Last I checked it is a free market and businesses have the right to refuse business. It may cause the Christian photographer to lose some business and be looked upon poorly by other folks, but that is their right as a business.

    Just like Chic-Fil-A isn't open on Sundays when practically every other store in the nation is. Are they losing business on those Sundays? Sure, but that is their right to have that kind of a policy.


    To get back on topic, as a Libertarian, I don't want government involved in defining personal things for us. They're already much too large as it is and they've spread themselves far too thin by overstepping their bounds and involving themselves in too much.

    The Federal Government needs to go on a diet and re-examine their actual scope.
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  3. #18
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    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Nope. This is not true. Polygamy is not necessarily an abomination is my eyes. Many Biblical patriarchs married multiple women.

    You are attacking my argument as unsound by using reductio ad absurdum and including all kinds of ridiculous scenarios I never mentioned. Perhaps we should just stick with the actual points made.
    You opened the polygamy door, not me. Hence, there's no attack. Just a defense. If you don't have an issue with polygamy, why bring it up in the context in which you did? Sounds to me that your earlier post was a slippery slope argument that marriage could devolve into polygamy.

    And I suggest you read some more religious based sites and they're stances on the issue. I got my examples of marrying your dog, toaster, et all from one of them, claiming this same slippery slope argument you intimated earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    This take sounds very much like how liberals respond to people who are against the ACA or other liberal policies; scaring old people, etc.

    I am not trying to scare anybody. I made a valid point.
    I am not sure what point you've made. And since BOTH parties rely on scare tactics, calling me out as doing something "Liberals" do is fallacy ad hominem since your use of "liberal" in this context is a pejorative.

    I never said YOU were trying to scare anyone. I said, very clearly, the argument of same sex marriages opens Pandora's Box comes from a time / place where the object was to scare their side into thinking that if you allow same sex marriages, you open the door for other issues like polygamy, bestiality, etc.

    It's the exact same argument groups like the KKK used when trying to ban interracial marriages. It was 100% wrong then and it's 100% wrong now.
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  4. #19

    Re: Ted Cruz

    I fail to see how CHANGING the current law from a consenting man + a consenting women, to 2 consenting adults is very different from changing it to "consenting adults".
    I do see a major difference when removing the word "adults" or even humans.

    So I guess I'm on Greg's side on this one. IF we are already going to change it, might as well allow plural marriage as well. I don't see any more harm in that, so long as it is between consenting adults.

    But what I really HATE about this issue, is that we are "brainwashed" into thinking this is an issue of enough importance that we should be choosing presidential candidates about this issue. In this current political/economic climate, anything besides Economic Policy is window dressing at this point. If we keep choosing candidates based on social policy we will eventually have a socially progressive nation that collapses under it's own weight. That "eventually" will be during most of our lifetimes.




  5. #20
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    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    I fail to see how CHANGING the current law from a consenting man + a consenting women, to 2 consenting adults is very different from changing it to "consenting adults".
    I do see a major difference when removing the word "adults" or even humans.

    So I guess I'm on Greg's side on this one. IF we are already going to change it, might as well allow plural marriage as well. I don't see any more harm in that, so long as it is between consenting adults
    So anything between consenting adults is cool then? Two consenting adults can have a murder / suicide pact? Two consenting adults can shoot each other up with heroin?

    The problem is your standard is missing a part. Marriage isn't just something two consenting adults do. The other aspect of marriage is to raise a family, something gay couples do as well. And dropping the "two" from the equation is laughable and unrealistic. You really think there's a legislative body in this country that will pass a marriage standard that allows polygamy? You really think there's a court in this country would allow such a move?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    But what I really HATE about this issue, is that we are "brainwashed" into thinking this is an issue of enough importance that we should be choosing presidential candidates about this issue. In this current political/economic climate, anything besides Economic Policy is window dressing at this point. If we keep choosing candidates based on social policy we will eventually have a socially progressive nation that collapses under it's own weight. That "eventually" will be during most of our lifetimes.
    People getting denied their rights are issues this country was founded upon.

    Pretty sure we can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time by making sure the economy is the best it can be AND making sure everyone is treated equally under the law.

    This issue of gay rights is not a progressive issue any more.
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  6. #21
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    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post

    But what I really HATE about this issue, is that we are "brainwashed" into thinking this is an issue of enough importance that we should be choosing presidential candidates about this issue. In this current political/economic climate, anything besides Economic Policy is window dressing at this point. If we keep choosing candidates based on social policy we will eventually have a socially progressive nation that collapses under it's own weight. That "eventually" will be during most of our lifetimes.




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  7. #22
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    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    So anything between consenting adults is cool then? Two consenting adults can have a murder / suicide pact? Two consenting adults can shoot each other up with heroin?

    The problem is your standard is missing a part. Marriage isn't just something two consenting adults do. The other aspect of marriage is to raise a family, something gay couples do as well. And dropping the "two" from the equation is laughable and unrealistic. You really think there's a legislative body in this country that will pass a marriage standard that allows polygamy? You really think there's a court in this country would allow such a move?
    Which is exactly why I'm totally against government even really having a say in social/personal issues like this.

    If ten girls want to marry Greg and Greg is willing to deal with that much constant bickering and headaches, more power to him.




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  8. #23

    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    So anything between consenting adults is cool then? Two consenting adults can have a murder / suicide pact? Two consenting adults can shoot each other up with heroin?

    The problem is your standard is missing a part. Marriage isn't just something two consenting adults do. The other aspect of marriage is to raise a family, something gay couples do as well. And dropping the "two" from the equation is laughable and unrealistic. You really think there's a legislative body in this country that will pass a marriage standard that allows polygamy? You really think there's a court in this country would allow such a move?



    People getting denied their rights are issues this country was founded upon.

    Pretty sure we can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time by making sure the economy is the best it can be AND making sure everyone is treated equally under the law.

    This issue of gay rights is not a progressive issue any more.
    wow you like to twist peoples arguments like Galen....

    We are talking about marriage, what does murder/suicide and heroin have to do with marriage? What makes 2 gay men more able to start a family then man and 7 women? In fact, it is quite exactly the opposite. Biology.
    20 years ago removing Man and women would have been laughable as well.

    well, WE HAVE NOT been able to "chew bubble gum and walk at the same time" so far, so not sure how that will change in the future. ]

    For the record, I don't care one way or the other if gay people want to get married. I really couldn't possibly care less if there was a law one way or the other. I feel the same way about Polygamy, and I see very little difference between them as far as the law should be concerned. Gay people's rights are no more infringed then polygamists, so why don't you stand up for them. Right now ALL are treated equally under the law, one man can marry one woman. Why are gay people's rights more important to you then polygamists? They are both being denied the ability to marry whom they choose.




  9. #24

    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Which is exactly why I'm totally against government even really having a say in social/personal issues like this.

    If ten girls want to marry Greg and Greg is willing to deal with that much constant bickering and headaches, more power to him.




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    as long as its acknowledged polygamy like the Mormons have and not some guy with multiple wives thats always "away on business" and the others are unaware. I dont really see issue with it either I guess. Problem is Religious Right sees that as a really bad thing equal to marrying animals or inanimate objects when they debate the issue, which i think is totally off base to consider Gays the same as a goat or toaster. If thats not proof of discrimination I dont know what is.
    -JAB




  10. #25

    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    as long as its acknowledged polygamy like the Mormons have and not some guy with multiple wives thats always "away on business" and the others are unaware. I dont really see issue with it either I guess. Problem is Religious Right sees that as a really bad thing equal to marrying animals or inanimate objects when they debate the issue, which i think is totally off base to consider Gays the same as a goat or toaster. If thats not proof of discrimination I dont know what is.
    well so far in this thread, one person who is supportive of gay rights has equated plural marriage to marrying goats and toasters. So it goes both ways. Adult humans marrying adult humans is what we are talking about here. I fail to see how there is any, let alone HUGE differences between changing the definition from 1 man, 1 woman, to 1 adult human, to another adult human, vs allowing adult humans to marry any other adult humans they want(plural). What is it about 2 man or 2 women that is BETTER then 3-15 like minded adults of differing or similar genders.




  11. #26
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    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    as long as its acknowledged polygamy like the Mormons have and not some guy with multiple wives thats always "away on business" and the others are unaware. I dont really see issue with it either I guess. Problem is Religious Right sees that as a really bad thing equal to marrying animals or inanimate objects when they debate the issue, which i think is totally off base to consider Gays the same as a goat or toaster. If thats not proof of discrimination I dont know what is.
    If some guy has a bunch of wives and the few don't know about each other, who cares?

    I mean, that guy is a scumbag and will probably get caught and have to face some significant divorce charges.


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  12. #27
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    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    wow you like to twist peoples arguments like Galen....
    I see. I take a side that's traditionally on the left and all of a sudden I am Galen. Let's stow the personal shots, K?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    We are talking about marriage, what does murder/suicide and heroin have to do with marriage?
    You brought up the "two consenting adults" argument, intimating that whatever two consenting adults do should be ok. I used absurdity to prove that notion wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    What makes 2 gay men more able to start a family then man and 7 women? In fact, it is quite exactly the opposite. Biology.
    20 years ago removing Man and women would have been laughable as well.
    Biology is A way of making a family. It's NOT the ONLY way.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    For the record, I don't care one way or the other if gay people want to get married. I really couldn't possibly care less if there was a law one way or the other. I feel the same way about Polygamy, and I see very little difference between them as far as the law should be concerned. Gay people's rights are no more infringed then polygamists, so why don't you stand up for them. Right now ALL are treated equally under the law, one man can marry one woman. Why are gay people's rights more important to you then polygamists? They are both being denied the ability to marry whom they choose.
    The denial of gay marriage stigmatizes gay couples as inferior, that's why it's important to me. I have close friends and relatives who are gay, all of whom deserve the same rights we enjoy.

    I am not necessarily disagreeing with you in one vein. I think saying who can and cannot marry is a silly endeavor. Unfortunately, we don't live in a world that runs that way at the moment. I have an issue when the state says you CAN'T marry the person you love vis a vie laws that define marriage between a man and a woman.
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  13. #28

    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    I see. I take a side that's traditionally on the left and all of a sudden I am Galen. Let's stow the personal shots, K?
    You brought up the "two consenting adults" argument, intimating that whatever two consenting adults do should be ok. I used absurdity to prove that notion wrong.
    Biology is A way of making a family. It's NOT the ONLY way.
    The denial of gay marriage stigmatizes gay couples as inferior, that's why it's important to me. I have close friends and relatives who are gay, all of whom deserve the same rights we enjoy.
    I am not necessarily disagreeing with you in one vein. I think saying who can and cannot marry is a silly endeavor. Unfortunately, we don't live in a world that runs that way at the moment. I have an issue when the state says you CAN'T marry the person you love vis a vie laws that define marriage between a man and a woman.
    Has noting to do with what "side" your stance traditionally falls on, it's the out of context extremist examples that remind me of RoboGalen. But I do find humor in the fact that we can all agree that referring to someone as "Galen-like" is a personal shot. No offense was intended as a personal shot, simply a shot at the style of discussion you were employing.

    It is simply my take that any consenting adults should be able to "marry" any other consenting adults they wish. I don't care to limit it in quantity or gender. It's not your pro-gay marriage stance that I take issue with, it's your anti-polygamy. I find it incredibly hypocritical, as evidenced by each and every word you add on to this subject.

    Correct, Biology is only one way, and adoption is absolutely and under-promoted ideal that can help poor souls out of bad situations, and perhaps even live, when otherwise they would be killed before their first breath. But you insinuated that a gay couple is more prepared to form a family then a plural marriage would be which I find hysterical.
    The denial of plural marriage stigmatizes plural marriage families as inferior, that's why it's important to me. I have known people who are proponents of plural marriage, all of whom deserve the same rights we enjoy.
    I am not necessarily disagreeing with you in one vein. I think saying who can and cannot marry is a silly endeavor. Unfortunately, we don't live in a world that runs that way at the moment. I have an issue when the state says you CAN'T marry the person you love vis a vie laws that define marriage between one man and one woman.

    Honestly, I've never met true polygamists, but like a joke, it works best from the first person. I watched Big Love faithfully, and am playing the Devil's advocate here. I do however see absolutely no reason to separate the two issues. If we are to change the marriage laws and remove all the antiquated provisions, we might as well do it all at once. Children, Animals and toasters all deserve the protection the law provides, but consenting adults deserve the freedom to choose to marry whomever they love.
    I still think it is a states issue, and I also still think it is NOT an issue worth winning even a single vote over. I can understand that certain people feel it is, but those who feel that way deserve the failing economic policy we are getting by focusing on such issues.




  14. #29
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    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    But I do find humor in the fact that we can all agree that referring to someone as "Galen-like" is a personal shot.
    THAT! Has been the best part of this whole thread. Something got accomplished!
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  15. #30
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    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    THAT! Has been the best part of this whole thread. Something got accomplished!
    Indeed
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