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Thread: Ted Cruz

  1. #31

    Re: Ted Cruz



    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    If some guy has a bunch of wives and the few don't know about each other, who cares?

    I mean, that guy is a scumbag and will probably get caught and have to face some significant divorce charges.


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    Because its a document signed under false pretenses. I think theres a big difference in allowing multiple marriages that are known vs not.
    -JAB




  2. #32

    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    Because its a document signed under false pretenses. I think theres a big difference in allowing multiple marriages that are known vs not.
    agreed, my "proposed" version of plural marriage would include signatures from all currently married spouses. IT would become one marriage of 3, not 2 separate marriages of 2.




  3. #33

    Re: Ted Cruz

    Maybe it would be better if the state got out of the business of recognizing marriages period. Marriages are essentially a religious institution which could easily be replaced by legal contracts for those who would marry anything capable of legal consent. The fact that the state recognizes it as a legal entity with significant implications other than contractual is pretty much the state's usurpation of a religious institution. Tax status, medical insurance, etc etc are all things that the state has embedded into the status of married which is why gay people want to take advantage of it. When the state confers benefits to one class of people the pressure is on for them to expand the class that benefits. If you don't like gay marriage, remove it from the state's purview by removing all state sponsored benefits from it. Incidentally, I haven't heard any gay couples ( especially the male ones) complain that their family coverage under Obamacare has to include pregnancy and birth control. Not quite sure how much extra this costs but ....




  4. #34

    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by walkingpneumonia View Post
    Maybe it would be better if the state got out of the business of recognizing marriages period. Marriages are essentially a religious institution which could easily be replaced by legal contracts for those who would marry anything capable of legal consent. The fact that the state recognizes it as a legal entity with significant implications other than contractual is pretty much the state's usurpation of a religious institution. Tax status, medical insurance, etc etc are all things that the state has embedded into the status of married which is why gay people want to take advantage of it. When the state confers benefits to one class of people the pressure is on for them to expand the class that benefits. If you don't like gay marriage, remove it from the state's purview by removing all state sponsored benefits from it. Incidentally, I haven't heard any gay couples ( especially the male ones) complain that their family coverage under Obamacare has to include pregnancy and birth control. Not quite sure how much extra this costs but ....
    But that is not entirely the case. When these discussions come up, generally Gay people still feel slighted by the term "Civil Union" even if it includes all benefits of marriage but those embedded by the "public" at large and churches. Gay people want to feel like everyone else, and have it be accepted by everyone else, including churches, or at least that is the presumption I come across from these discussions.




  5. #35

    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    But that is not entirely the case. When these discussions come up, generally Gay people still feel slighted by the term "Civil Union" even if it includes all benefits of marriage but those embedded by the "public" at large and churches. Gay people want to feel like everyone else, and have it be accepted by everyone else, including churches, or at least that is the presumption I come across from these discussions.
    well if every straight couple is married and every gay couple is a union, its not the same. I think it has very little to do with the Churches as it does the governments definition. though the minority im sure, theres still plenty of churches that do recognize gay people and will marry them. If marriage is replaced by union, im sure that would be suffice, but theres going to be a lot of "marriage Licenses" that are no longer valid, which means it probably wont happen that way. At this point it has to be marriage or bust for that reason. would have been a lot easier if a religious word never got written into a law.
    -JAB




  6. #36

    Re: Ted Cruz

    If you turn your statement around what you are in effect saying is that Gay people want to use the state to coerce everyone else to accept their definition of marriage. It is not about equality under the law but about using the law as a means to force people to think and act a certain way. The fact that the state can use its power to force people to accept something that many of them consider to be morally wrong at the behest of a relatively small but vocal minority is kind of scary.




  7. #37
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    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by walkingpneumonia View Post
    If you turn your statement around what you are in effect saying is that Gay people want to use the state to coerce everyone else to accept their definition of marriage.
    Please. The goal is equal treatment under the law. I believe I read that guarantee somewhere before.

    Quote Originally Posted by walkingpneumonia View Post
    It is not about equality under the law but about using the law as a means to force people to think and act a certain way. The fact that the state can use its power to force people to accept something that many of them consider to be morally wrong at the behest of a relatively small but vocal minority is kind of scary.
    Precisely the same argument made during segregation for but one difference. Th majority of Americans are ok with gay marriage.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/163730/ba...ge-states.aspx
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  8. #38

    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Please. The goal is equal treatment under the law. I believe I read that guarantee somewhere before.



    Precisely the same argument made during segregation for but one difference. Th majority of Americans are ok with gay marriage.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/163730/ba...ge-states.aspx
    I can assure you that 52% is continually growing as well. Its not a vocal minority, its the majority these days and the vocal minority is the religious groups against it.
    -JAB




  9. #39
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    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by walkingpneumonia View Post
    Maybe it would be better if the state got out of the business of recognizing marriages period. Marriages are essentially a religious institution which could easily be replaced by legal contracts for those who would marry anything capable of legal consent.
    This is true. And it's the only problem (for lack of a better word) I have with Gay "Marriage". I know it's only a word. But Marriage is a religious ceremony.

    In this conversation (which comes up ofter) the state needs to only have a say over civil unions. Anyone can have one that way every one has equal treatment, but as far as a marriage just keep it separate and have the state not recognize it at all so churches/religions can be happy about it.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  10. #40
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    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    I can assure you that 52% is continually growing as well. Its not a vocal minority, its the majority these days and the vocal minority is the religious groups against it.
    While I agree with the numbers aspect, I do wish that the contention between hard line religious groups and the gay community would go away.

    IMO, it's the only thing really standing in the way of full blow acceptance.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  11. #41
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    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    This is true. And it's the only problem (for lack of a better word) I have with Gay "Marriage". I know it's only a word. But Marriage is a religious ceremony.

    In this conversation (which comes up ofter) the state needs to only have a say over civil unions. Anyone can have one that way every one has equal treatment, but as far as a marriage just keep it separate and have the state not recognize it at all so churches/religions can be happy about it.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  12. #42

    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Anyone can have one that way every one has equal treatment, but as far as a marriage just keep it separate and have the state not recognize it at all so churches/religions can be happy about it.
    Do you mean to say the government wouldn't interfere with the actions of 2 consenting adults that are not violating anyone else's rights? What an absurd idea.




  13. #43

    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    This is true. And it's the only problem (for lack of a better word) I have with Gay "Marriage". I know it's only a word. But Marriage is a religious ceremony.

    In this conversation (which comes up ofter) the state needs to only have a say over civil unions. Anyone can have one that way every one has equal treatment, but as far as a marriage just keep it separate and have the state not recognize it at all so churches/religions can be happy about it.
    I "believe"(could certainly be wrong) that this too would not be good enough for homosexuals, at least as it has always been framed to me in these arguments,.

    Again, I have no dog in this hunt, not religious in the slightest, not gay, not anti-gay.

    I too believe this to be the solution, and if it turns out to "not be good enough" then tough shit.
    Because, as mentioned in another post, if this ISNT good enough, then it is an attempt to force the government to coerce the public into sanction something they may not believe in.
    Equal treatment under the law is quite fine with me, but I will also include polygamy in the same discussion, from my perspective, they are equal.




  14. #44

    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    While I agree with the numbers aspect, I do wish that the contention between hard line religious groups and the gay community would go away.

    IMO, it's the only thing really standing in the way of full blow acceptance.
    Pope Francis hopefully changes some minds in that aspect. Not that he speaks for all Christians or any other religion but i think his message is good.
    -JAB




  15. #45

    Re: Ted Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Please. The goal is equal treatment under the law. I believe I read that guarantee somewhere before.
    What he said was:

    "But that is not entirely the case. When these discussions come up, generally Gay people still feel slighted by the term "Civil Union" even if it includes all benefits of marriage but those embedded by the "public" at large and churches. Gay people want to feel like everyone else, and have it be accepted by everyone else, including churches, or at least that is the presumption I come across from these discussions. "
    I don't think my reading of that is unfair. And he was actually responding to my assertion that perhaps marriage should be relegated to just being a religious institution - -which makes your equal treatment under the law statement irrelevant.

    You also say:
    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Precisely the same argument made during segregation for but one difference.
    It may have been one of many arguments made in favor of segregation( although to be quite honest it certainly isn't the first one I thought of -- the sub-human arguments, anti-miscegenation bs, states rights arguments, separate but equal arguments.) I am not saying that any of the arguments are not repulsive and reprehensible in this context( the tenth amendment was written for a reason just not this one) , but there is a very real danger in the incremental erosion of our liberties by government coercion and you can't really throw that in with segregation to taint the argument -- kind of a guilt by association and a relatively dishonest rhetorical device.

    As I said above, I don't think the state should be in the business of sanctioning an essentially religious ceremony and awarding benefits through preferential tax treatment, etc. I have friends and family who are gay too. I don't have anything against people who are. I do think the government sticks its nose in far too many areas however and when it does it tends to enforce the will of those who are the most vocal at the expense of those who are not. Any industry lobbyist is a prime example.
    Last edited by walkingpneumonia; 11-08-2013 at 08:11 PM. Reason: Clarification




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