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  1. #76
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?



    BTW, I have engaged in far less partisan BS than those who are opposed to the ACA, and less than Tony expressed in his article.




  2. #77
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    First, I would ask you to define an "affordable" bronze plan, would $20,000 a year for a family of 4 be "affordable"?
    Please check out the factcheck.org link below debunking your $20,000/year for a family claim. More misinformation.

    http://www.factcheck.org/2013/03/oba...0000-a-family/

    The cost assistance (subsidies) are based on income. The average American will pay between 3% - 9.5% of their income on insurance after cost assistance. Insurance costing 8% of your income is considered affordable insurance for individuals. 9.5% is considered affordable for job based insurance. When you get health insurance through your company, you are still paying about 20% of the premium costs through your payroll deductions.

    The cost of health insurance premiums have been rising rapidly for decades and would have continued to do so, even before the ACA was passed. We'll see how good a job the ACA will do in lowering long term health care costs.

    Good to know the Government has a magical money tree that funds everything with no consequences.
    This is why elections matter. They allow the people to set priorities for spending for a country. I would much rather spend money to help our people here in the US, than spend a trillion dollars on more mid-east wars. Maybe if we spent less money trying to be the world's policeman, and spent that money on helping our own people, we would all be better off. The Republican Party made the same argument you are making in the 2008 and 2012 elections, and lost by fairly wide margins both times. As I stated before, Bisciotti is a smart businessman, and is better placed to know what is better for his business than we are.
    Last edited by HoustonRaven; 10-25-2013 at 12:50 PM. Reason: Fix formatting




  3. #78
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    Bisciotti is a smart businessman. He didn't just wake up today and realize that the Republicans and their followers oppose the ACA. The GOP just shut the government down and threatened a default on US debt if the ACA was not defunded.
    That's not what the shut down was about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    They failed yet again of course, but Bisciotti is well aware of how they feel. $130,000 is nothing to a billionaire like Bisciotti, so he did not make this decision for the money. That amount of money may not even cover the Ravens expenses. I think he is doing this because he thinks it is the right thing to do.
    The money doesn't go to him. It goes to the team and $130,000 is a lot of money in team operations.

    And Bisciotti is a Democrat. So lets stop with the silly notion this was a benevolent decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    People who do not have health insurance, and have pre-existing conditions are likely going to sign up for Obamacare (ACA). This law will be a God send for them. However, in order for the law to work, uninsured healthy people need to sign up as well. Many of these uninsured healthy people are young people between the ages of 27-32. Thanks to Obamacare (ACA), young people can now be covered under their parents' health insurance plan until the age of 26. This is where pro sports teams and entertainers can be of real help. I bet a lot of NBA, NFL, and MLB teams join in such public awareness efforts before all is said and done.
    So basically you're ok with the lies such as "your insurance premiums won't go up" and "you can keep your plan if you like it" in order to get it passed?

    If it's such a great thing, why are even Democrats calling for a delay?
    Last edited by HoustonRaven; 10-25-2013 at 12:54 PM.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  4. #79
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    Please check out the factcheck.org link below debunking your $20,000/year for a family claim. More misinformation.

    http://www.factcheck.org/2013/03/oba...0000-a-family/
    I asked if you would define that as affordable, I didn't say that was the case. However factcheck doesn't say that it isn't true or that it is, they just say it was an estimate from the IRS. So it very well could be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    The cost assistance (subsidies) are based on income. The average American will pay between 3% - 9.5% of their income on insurance after cost assistance. Insurance costing 8% of your income is considered affordable insurance for individuals. 9.5% is considered affordable for job based insurance. When you get health insurance through your company, you are still paying about 20% of the premium costs through your payroll deductions.
    So where does the money for those subsidies come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    The cost of health insurance premiums have been rising rapidly for decades and would have continued to do so, even before the ACA was passed. We'll see how good a job the ACA will do in lowering long term health care costs.
    I don't get this. If it's already not lowering rates, what makes you think it would long term? Cause Obama promised it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    This is why elections matter. They allow the people to set priorities for spending for a country. I would much rather spend money to help our people here in the US, than spend a trillion dollars on more mid-east wars. Maybe if we spent less money trying to be the world's policeman, and spent that money on helping our own people, we would all be better off. The Republican Party made the same argument you are making in the 2008 and 2012 elections, and lost by fairly wide margins both times. As I stated before, Bisciotti is a smart businessman, and is better placed to know what is better for his business than we are.
    You're not going to get any argument on me about where money is being spent. But please, please let's not pretend it's only Republicans spending money else where than this country.

    Seriously, it's almost pointless for us to continue talking about this when only "one side" is the cause of all life's problems.

    I do have to ask though, why do you leave out 2010, when they ran on this? http://www.centerforpolitics.org/cry...txs2010120901/

    The problem with 2008 and 2012 is republicans are nominating RINO's and people are tired of it, try checking the turn out numbers if you don't believe me.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  5. #80
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    So basically you're ok with the lies such as "your insurance premiums won't go up" and "you can keep your plan if you like it" in order to get it passed?
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fla-bl...142302560.html

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    If it's such a great thing, why are even Democrats calling for a delay?
    I know you know this, but it's so the fines don't hit prior to next years elections...
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  6. #81
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Seriously?

    I didn't say you don't like coming here to talk football.

    I said "You don't like coming to talk football, and end up reading about Tony's political views?"

    If that is an accurate assumption, than what I am doing is showing that the same thing you're saying you don't like (coming to talk football and end up reading Tony's political commentary), is the same thing why people are saying they don't like the Ravens promoting this issue. They watch their games to watch football not watch football AND end up having a politically divisive issue promoted to them.

    Does that make sense?
    Hey NC, I didn't make it back here right away so didn't see your post above until now.

    While we may have some issues concerning mutual understanding in terms of sentence structure and wording, I glean that one point you're trying to make is: Why did I read an article about Tony's political views if I'm only interested in football. Is that correct?

    If so, I can clarify that. Tony's article is titled "Ravens Make Costly Blunder?", which could have meant anything from Ray Rice's contract to some future plans for the stadium. So I decided to read it. If you go back over the article, you'll see there was no reference whatsoever to Obamacare or politics before roughly the 12th paragraph. By the time I got that far, I went ahead and finished the article. Ordinarily I skip political articles/editorials on non-political websites. This turned out to be an exception for the aforementioned reason.




  7. #82
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by trailhiker85 View Post
    Hey NC, I didn't make it back here right away so didn't see your post above until now.

    While we may have some issues concerning mutual understanding in terms of sentence structure and wording, I glean that one point you're trying to make is: Why did I read an article about Tony's political views if I'm only interested in football. Is that correct?

    If so, I can clarify that. Tony's article is titled "Ravens Make Costly Blunder?", which could have meant anything from Ray Rice's contract to some future plans for the stadium. So I decided to read it. If you go back over the article, you'll see there was no reference whatsoever to Obamacare or politics before roughly the 12th paragraph. By the time I got that far, I went ahead and finished the article. Ordinarily I skip political articles/editorials on non-political websites. This turned out to be an exception for the aforementioned reason.
    Not really.

    Your first post said this "I normally don't visit the politics thread because I come here for football talk, not politics."

    Which I think most everyone's point is (including Tony's). We watch the Ravens cause they are the team we root for when watching football. Not to have divisive issue promoted to us (via taxpayer money).

    While I may have been able to word it better, I was just trying to show you the point others were trying to make with the point you made "I normally don't visit the politics thread because I come here for football talk, not politics." That's all.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  8. #83
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Your first post said this "I normally don't visit the politics thread because I come here for football talk, not politics."
    Precisely. And I don't believe anything I've said subsequently contradicts that sentence. However, I don't think we're going to quite see eye-to-eye on our respective points. That doesn't necessarily make either of us right or wrong.




  9. #84
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by trailhiker85 View Post
    Precisely. And I don't believe anything I've said subsequently contradicts that sentence. However, I don't think we're going to quite see eye-to-eye on our respective points. That doesn't necessarily make either of us right or wrong.
    The normally is not the relevant portion to the point. This "I come here for football talk, not politics" is. I watch the Ravens to watch the Ravens not politics. Not, normally, always.

    I am not sure if I can be more clear than that.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  10. #85
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post

    I am not sure if I can be more clear than that.
    A mutual problem, it seems.

    Anyway, feel free to have the last word. And have a good bye weekend!




  11. #86
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    I doubt seriously that this "increased awareness" will include that people are are being dropped left and right from their private plans or that women's health choices are being seriously limited.
    No, the "increased awareness" will almost surely include telling people how to find out what the consequences are for them--which for some of them may be as you say. A campaign that's been made necessary by the amount of disinformation that's been spread in an effort to get people angry enough to boycott the program.
    If you think this ad campaign will be strictly informative in nature, I have a tunnel under the harbor I'd like to sell you.
    Have you seen any of the campaign? Didn't think so. But you're already in high dudgeon over what you "know" about it. Do you rush to judgement on the basis of no evidence like that in your job?

    (ETA: I have seen some non-Ravens health-exchange-related TV spots here in Maryland, and they're pretty innocuous. The only "flackery" is people [or actors representing people] saying things like "I got coverage I couldn't get before".)

    I think that Steve Bisciotti would not sign onto something that was pure flackery. You think differently? OK. How about we wait until we have some solid evidence to confirm or deny your assumptions before going ballistic?

    Now, I will agree that the GOP has been telling a ton of lies. But so have the Democrats and the President, the largest being "If you like your plan, you can keep it".
    Keep in mind that it's not the "gubmint" canceling plans or restricting provider networks, it's the insurance companies. Which they did on a regular basis before the ACA & would have done without it. I wonder how many of them are just using the ACA as a convenient scapegoat for actions they would have taken anyway.




  12. #87
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    Keep in mind that it's not the "gubmint" canceling plans or restricting provider networks, it's the insurance companies. Which they did on a regular basis before the ACA & would have done without it. I wonder how many of them are just using the ACA as a convenient scapegoat for actions they would have taken anyway.
    Ah, the big bad insurance companies. It most certainly is the "gubmint" canceling plans. The plans are being canceled because they do not comply with the law.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  13. #88
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Cactus View Post
    DOMA doesn't require you to sign up for something or get fined. ACA is definitely controversial, and I agree that a certain number of people aren't going to be thrilled to see its presence at the stadium. But there is a necessity to inform people about its existence and the obligations it places on them.

    If we agree that this is necessary, then clearly the Ravens are providing a public service by spreading the word. The remaining question is whether it makes business sense. I personally don't think it will effect the Ravens business prospects in even a miniscule way.
    DOMA is worse than a fine/tax in some people's minds because they view it as discrimination. So imagine if the Ravens promoted DOMA and "family values". I could argue it's a law so no need to get upset.

    Besides, if Obamacare is dependent upon NFL teams promoting it than that's just another bullet point for people that don't like it. The "public service" isn't needed. If it is needed, then how about a public service promoting roe vs wade. The Ravens could even provide the addesses of abortion clinics. Hey, it's a law and public service that people need. I'm sure there are more than one couple in the stands contemplating an abortion.

    Bottom line, IMO The Ravens should have stayed out of this promoting unpopular laws business.
    Last edited by ERey; 10-25-2013 at 07:37 PM.




  14. #89
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    No, the "increased awareness" will almost surely include telling people how to find out what the consequences are for them--which for some of them may be as you say. A campaign that's been made necessary by the amount of disinformation that's been spread in an effort to get people angry enough to boycott the program.Have you seen any of the campaign? Didn't think so. But you're already in high dudgeon over what you "know" about it. Do you rush to judgement on the basis of no evidence like that in your job?
    Interesting. I'll come back this (ignoring your desperate ad hominem attack)....

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    I think that Steve Bisciotti would not sign onto something that was pure flackery. You think differently? OK. How about we wait until we have some solid evidence to confirm or deny your assumptions before going ballistic?
    ... like right now. So you're free to speculate on the who, what and how of the ad campaign but when someone else does it they're in "high dudgeon" over it. Got it.

    So let me ask you the same question. Have YOU seen any of the campaign? Didn't think so, boychik.

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    Keep in mind that it's not the "gubmint" canceling plans or restricting provider networks, it's the insurance companies. Which they did on a regular basis before the ACA & would have done without it. I wonder how many of them are just using the ACA as a convenient scapegoat for actions they would have taken anyway.
    If anything, you have the talking points down.

    Take a look at the new laws. They're specifically targeted at insurance companies (you know, the ones that provide the polices the President said I can keep if I like it?) to get more people involved in Obamacare and not with a private entity.

    Straight money grab. Plain and simple.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  15. #90
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by ERey View Post
    DOMA is worse than a fine/tax is some people's minds because they view it as discrimination. So imagine if the Ravens promoted DOMA and "family values". I could argue it's a law so no need to get upset.

    Besides, if Obamacare is dependent upon NFL teams promoting it than that's just another bullet point for people that don't like it. The "public service" isn't needed. If it is needed, then how about a public service promoting roe vs wade. The Ravens could even provide the addesses of abortion clinics. Hey, it's a law and public service that people need. I'm sure there are more than one couple in the stands contemplating an abortion.

    Bottom line, IMO The Ravens should have stayed out of this promoting unpopular laws business.


    And this illustrates the larger point. The topic is irrelevant but changing it shows the glaring hypocrisy.

    Change it from Obamacare to DOMA, concealed carry laws, etc and this dynamic changes for the supporters of the teams decision.

    We've already witnessed this when Harbs made very pro-Christian comments a while back. Some posters went nuts saying he should remain neutral, religion has no place in sports, yadda yadda yadda ....

    Now that the shoe is on the other foot and all of sudden tacit, public support of something is ok so long as it's something they agree with as well.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




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