Can we end the Gradkowski at Center experiment?

[LukeDaniel]

I agree that Gradkowski has stunk it up, but who else to replace him? AQ Shipley was horrible in the preaseason and actually lost the center battle to Gradkowski. Some will point to his record when he played with the Colts, however, he had an entirely different tandem of talent around him, and isn't fair to compare apples to oranges.

Your argument is sound, but what can be lost by giving Shipley a try?

Gradkowski is the worst offensive lineman the Ravens have ever had start for them for this length of time (7 straight games). The only one I think is even in the same level of crapitude is Ethan Brooks in 2002. Heck, I might even rate Oneil Cousins ahead of Gradkowsk, because even though Cousins turned in the single worst game I've ever seen from a NFL 0-lineman (in Pittsburgh in Dec 2009), he had two solid starts before that game.

Perhaps Shipley won't be any better, but I don't see how it's possible he could be any worse. Unlike Gradkowski, this guy actually has turned in a few good NFL starts. If Gradkowski was getting better, upgrading his play from F-level to D-level, maybe there would be hope that he was improving. Yet, it seems like the two most recent games against PIT and GB were perhaps his two worst games of the year.

[Jsmoove]

Hell I'm willing to cut Cousins some slack because he didn't play Oline all his football career he was a converted DT. Gino played center his entire college Career and sucks.

[leachisabeast]

Ozzie wouldn't have drafted Gino if he didn't think he was a good player...even if DeCosta was pushing for him.

Not ever center steps into the NFL and is ready to rock and roll. I brought him up before, but John Sullivan with the Vikings sat behind Birk for a year before taking over and a lot of folks said the same things about Sullivan (undersized, not strong enough, etc) that are being said about Gino right now. Now Sullivan is one of the better centers in the NFL.

I'm not saying that Gino will ever develop into anything more than a depth/role player as a G/C, but it's not like he can't get better.

Sullivan also came from a much bigger school, and was good pretty much from day 1, Gino has shown nothing but really really poor play from day 1. Even if you go back to the 2012 pre season, he sucked then when Birk was hurt, then Birk came back, the offensive line improved drastically. Center has to be the most under valued position in football, that actually is really important. To date, Gino has had one decent game, and that was against the Bengals in a meaningless game, often lining up opposite second string DTs.

[leachisabeast]

Hell I'm willing to cut Cousins some slack because he didn't play Oline all his football career he was a converted DT. Gino played center his entire college Career and sucks.

No he played guard at Delaware, and SOME center, but mostly guard.

[RavenScallywag]

It's mental and techniques plus his size as he continued to be pushed back on bull rushing.

Oh yea. Ozzie's second round misses are well documented here but everyone has misses and a link was posted several years ago that he had more players drafted still playing than any other GM - like 80% were still playing.

DeCosta pushed for Gino but Oz made the final decision but one day Dee
will be making the final decision. Ozzie never heard of Flacco until his east coast scout called DeCosta and said you gotta check this guy out. He's the real deal.

Dee still didn't want to go to Delaware and didn't. He waited for Joe to come down here to play Towson and then took all his scouts to see him play Navy where he came from behind to beat them with two mins left.

Then he went to work on Flacco.

We can hope that DeCosta will be somewhere near as good as Ozzie when he does take over...

My point is, why would his support of Gino suddenly scare the shit out of you about him taking over, when as you said yourself, everyone has misses. I'm relatively sure, as you pointed out with your Flacco anecdote, there was a scout who was pushing DeCosta for Gradkowski as well.

[wickedsolo]

Sullivan also came from a much bigger school, and was good pretty much from day 1, Gino has shown nothing but really really poor play from day 1. Even if you go back to the 2012 pre season, he sucked then when Birk was hurt, then Birk came back, the offensive line improved drastically. Center has to be the most under valued position in football, that actually is really important. To date, Gino has had one decent game, and that was against the Bengals in a meaningless game, often lining up opposite second string DTs.

Sullivan was not already "good" from day-1. Go back and look at some of the Viking's fan forums. They were really pissed that the Vikings let Matt Birk go and there was a lot of commentary about Sullivan that is similar to the commentary we're all seeing now on Gino. Braxston Cave came from the same school that Sullivan did and Cave is sitting on the Jets' PS. So, while coming from a big school certainly helps regarding the level of competition faced, it hardly means that a guy is going to be good or not.

Regarding Gino playing against the Bengals last year, he wasn't just facing 2nd string players. He faced off against Geno Atkins and Domata Peko a few times. I think what we can learn from his performance against the Bengals is clearly having a healthy Yanda and KO will do wonders for Gino's overall performance.

Additionally, I dont think anyone is undervaluing the importance of the center position. Having a great center can really take a decent offensive line and turn them into a good or even great offensive line.

You bring up an interesting thought about Gino as a G/C at Delaware. Perhaps he'd be better suited as a guard in the future?

[The Excellector]

I can certainly cosign Wicked's statements. Vikings fans were upset, because they felt the organization was being cheap by letting Birk go, in favor of an unproven young Center. The team liked him, but the fans did not.

Gino could certainly be helped with a purer man blocking scheme, as well as two healthy guards. We all knew that he would have to strengthen at the point of attack.

So, he is certainly not a guy that I would give up on. However, for the short term, Shipley will probably be the better solution.

Now, it'll be interesting to see how the bye week effects both Osemele and Yanda. I always felt that Yanda rushed back from his surgery. If those two look stronger coming out of the bye, with a change in the scheme, and Gradkowski still struggles, you probably will see Shipley. Then again, Shipley could be the guy already, just unannounced.

[leachisabeast]

Sullivan was not already "good" from day-1. Go back and look at some of the Viking's fan forums. They were really pissed that the Vikings let Matt Birk go and there was a lot of commentary about Sullivan that is similar to the commentary we're all seeing now on Gino. Braxston Cave came from the same school that Sullivan did and Cave is sitting on the Jets' PS. So, while coming from a big school certainly helps regarding the level of competition faced, it hardly means that a guy is going to be good or not.

Regarding Gino playing against the Bengals last year, he wasn't just facing 2nd string players. He faced off against Geno Atkins and Domata Peko a few times. I think what we can learn from his performance against the Bengals is clearly having a healthy Yanda and KO will do wonders for Gino's overall performance.

Additionally, I dont think anyone is undervaluing the importance of the center position. Having a great center can really take a decent offensive line and turn them into a good or even great offensive line.

You bring up an interesting thought about Gino as a G/C at Delaware. Perhaps he'd be better suited as a guard in the future?

While Sullivan may have struggled in his rookie year, he was certainly a lot better than what Gino Gradkowski has been so far into the season. The Vikings had the 5th ranked offense, and AP was rushing for 4.5 yards a carry with Sullivan at C, he also only gave up 7 QB hurries and 4 sacks all year, while Gino has already given up 3 sacks, and 16 QB hurries on the season (16 hurries is baaaad).

I'm not saying that we should simply give up on Gino as a player, he may well end up being a solid player some day, but he obviously isn't ready right now, and there's no point continuing to trot him out with the starting unit if he's going to get destroyed every week. Right now, the looks like he belongs on he Jets PS chilling with Braxton Cave.

The depressing thing is, I don't think AQ would be any better, infact, I think he may be worse. He was garbage when he came on at guard against the Dolphins. I think we may as well throw out Ryan Jensen, at least for a game, to see what he can offer. The best move would be to move Yanda to C, and Wagner to RG, but that isn't likely to happen.

[HotInHere]

Regarding Gino playing against the Bengals last year, he wasn't just facing 2nd string players. He faced off against Geno Atkins and Domata Peko a few times. I think what we can learn from his performance against the Bengals is clearly having a healthy Yanda and KO will do wonders for Gino's overall performance.

I think one big difference from that game to this year is that the Bengals weren't scheming to abuse Gino and the middle of our line. He held his own when he had healthy guards around him. And let's face it -- it's been well documented, even regarding Birk, that centers these days are usually not expected to win one-on-one battles against DT's.

The problem is that now every team has tape on us, and until Gino gets better and the guards get healthy, we are going to continue to be pounded up the middle. Gino might get better with another offseason in the weight room and film room, but I'd say prospects for him improving much during this season are slim. KO the same way -- back problems, especially when they are talking about surgery, don't magically go away over a bye week. Marshall will probably steadily improve, but he needs a full offseason to really recover and get back into shape.

Even if we replace any of these guys, we are not going to improve the performance level appreciably. So here's where the coaches earn their paychecks. We have got to find ways, schematically, to make teams pay attacking the middle of the line. The biggest job a coach has is maximizing their strengths and hiding their weaknesses. We'll see if they come up with something new out of the bye.

[leachisabeast]

KO and Yanda were impressive on Sunday, there were no excuses for Gino as both played really well, that excuse is getting annoying now.

[AirFlacco]

We can hope that DeCosta will be somewhere near as good as Ozzie when he does take over...

My point is, why would his support of Gino suddenly scare the shit out of you about him taking over.

Because he pushed for Oher over Nicks and even told me that Nicks wasn't a good a player as Oher as he was bull rushed Sunday. Then he took Kruger in the second round who had 1/2 good season here and that was because he had Suggs.

Nicks became a SB hero in NY while Film Study gave Oher another D for Sunday's game but you're right. WE can only hope DeCosta is somewhere near as good as Oz just like Gino will be near as good as Birk.

[AirFlacco]

KO and Yanda were impressive on Sunday, there were no excuses for Gino as both played really well, that excuse is getting annoying now.

Exactly.