Harbaugh's Rookie-phobia

[owknows]

Just to be clear, I didn't suggest that Harbaugh never plays rookies. Only that Harbaugh places a greater emphasis on the value of veteran experience than he does on talent.

I've watched a lot of practice and pre-season for a lot of years. And I've seen a good number of situations where Harbaugh has stuck with a vet, even though he was outplayed by a rookie. I mentioned Elam and Brown, and others mention Webb as examples of this phenomenon.

I went out of my way to state that I don't think Ihegdibo and Bynes are bad players.. only that Elam and Brown are better players... and that I think their practice and pre-season made this clear.

Harbaugh has certainly played rookies... even started them (although I think this is rare). But I think there are cases where the evidence of superior play is pretty strong in favor of the rookie, and Harbaugh still goes with the vet. Hell, last year's place kicker battle went all the way down to the wire, even though Tucker was WAY better than Cundiff.

This isn't a knock on Harbaugh per se. Clearly he's a pretty damned successful coach. I do find it curious though, that he seems to have trouble believing what he sees with his own eyes when it comes to rookies outperforming vets... and that sometimes this results in the superior player watching the game from the sidelines.

[RavensRule21215]

Just to be clear, I didn't suggest that Harbaugh never plays rookies. Only that Harbaugh places a greater emphasis on the value of veteran experience than he does on talent.

I've watched a lot of practice and pre-season for a lot of years. And I've seen a good number of situations where Harbaugh has stuck with a vet, even though he was outplayed by a rookie. I mentioned Elam and Brown, and others mention Webb as examples of this phenomenon.

I went out of my way to state that I don't think Ihegdibo and Bynes are bad players.. only that Elam and Brown are better players... and that I think their practice and pre-season made this clear.

Harbaugh has certainly played rookies... even started them (although I think this is rare). But I think there are cases where the evidence of superior play is pretty strong in favor of the rookie, and Harbaugh still goes with the vet. Hell, last year's place kicker battle went all the way down to the wire, even though Tucker was WAY better than Cundiff.

This isn't a knock on Harbaugh per se. Clearly he's a pretty damned successful coach. I do find it curious though, that he seems to have trouble believing what he sees with his own eyes when it comes to rookies outperforming vets... and that sometimes this results in the superior player watching the game from the sidelines.

Good clarification. The problem with this board is that people who disagree tend to veer off into arguing against extremes that were never stated in the first place, derailing more intelligent/tempered discussions.

[B-more Ravor]

Just to be clear, I didn't suggest that Harbaugh never plays rookies. Only that Harbaugh places a greater emphasis on the value of veteran experience than he does on talent.

I've watched a lot of practice and pre-season for a lot of years. And I've seen a good number of situations where Harbaugh has stuck with a vet, even though he was outplayed by a rookie. I mentioned Elam and Brown, and others mention Webb as examples of this phenomenon.

I went out of my way to state that I don't think Ihegdibo and Bynes are bad players.. only that Elam and Brown are better players... and that I think their practice and pre-season made this clear.

Harbaugh has certainly played rookies... even started them (although I think this is rare). But I think there are cases where the evidence of superior play is pretty strong in favor of the rookie, and Harbaugh still goes with the vet. Hell, last year's place kicker battle went all the way down to the wire, even though Tucker was WAY better than Cundiff.

This isn't a knock on Harbaugh per se. Clearly he's a pretty damned successful coach. I do find it curious though, that he seems to have trouble believing what he sees with his own eyes when it comes to rookies outperforming vets... and that sometimes this results in the superior player watching the game from the sidelines.

1. It's been one game for Elam and Brown, I think it's way too early to throw them in this pot. My guess is both are starting soon (although it wasn't that long ago tat Bynes was the golden boy of this Board).

2. Tucker was unwanted by 32 NFL team until late May of last year. Luckily for us, we bit. Both he and Cundiff kicked very well in TC and PS by all reports. When you have 2 kickers kicking well, why cut one until you have to? What good would that do if Tucker had then gotten hurt?

Still, the premise is that Harbaugh picks the vet, but in this very case - he didn't.

3. I asked this earlier, other than Webb what other rookie clearly should have been starting over a veteran?

4. Talent is a dangerous concept. I think most would agree that Jimmy Smith is very talented, perhaps our most physically gifted CB. But, no one would say he is our best CB. Sometimes it takes young players time to be ready for the NFL. There's more to playing in the NFL than talent - you must know the defense, know your responsibilities and know the offenses. It takes time and most playoff contending teams aren't relying on rookies - beyond 1st rounders, perhaps - to start immediately.

Lastly, I think people are failing to consider how this team is built by Ozzie and the FO. They have as best as they can (given Cap constraints) tried. To fill the roster with as many viable "starters" at each position prior to the draft so that they don't need to draft for need and so tat they don't have to rush their rookies. They also draft late in the 1st and have been a veteran team, so rookies aren't necessarily expected to be immediate starters.

[B-more Ravor]

Good clarification. The problem with this board is that people who disagree tend to veer off into arguing against extremes that were never stated in the first place, derailing more intelligent/tempered discussions.

That's an interesting comment considering those disagreeing with the OPs premise have supplied many names of rookies who saw plenty of PT earlier in their careers, yet the only names thrown out so far to support the premise are Webb (who I think everyone agrees is the best example), Elam and Brown (after ONE game- which IS extreme) and Tucker (who was actually picked OVER the veteran)!

[Raveninwoodlawn]

The problem I have with those beating that drum about Harbaugh not playing rookies is that people are using that statement as a negative as well as if he's an anomaly in the really good coaching ranks.

The facts are that the only teams routinely starting multiple rookies on any resemblance of annual or even semi annual regularity are bad teams with little veteran talent and or have really high picks.

As for Brown and Elam...I don't think they "clearly" outplayed Bynes or Ihegbido (ironically it is looking like the safety Elam may be replacing should be Huff). I think that statement is based on a predetermined bias due to draft spots and computer numbers.

Also, there was a lot of complaining about how we lost Thursday more so due to mental mistakes than anything...yet we should be rushing guys in who the staff doesn't believe are mentally there yet?

The rooks will be in there soon when they get the mental part down...lets not rush them or act like Harbs has a fatal flaw with rookies here...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[owknows]

The premise here is pretty simple. It is that Harbaugh sometimes places too much emphasis on veteran experience over young talent.

I would submit that there are several examples of this phenomenon.

I believe that Webb was a superior player to Washington, and that Harbaugh played Washington.
I believe that Elam is a superior player to Ihegdibo, and Harbaugh played Ihegdibo.
I believe that Arthur Brown is a superior player to Josh Bynes, and that Harbaugh played Bynes.
I believe that Josh Bynes was superior player to Brendon Ayanbedejo, and Harbaugh CUT Bynes.
I believe that Danny Gorrer was a superior player to Foxworth, and Harbaugh played Foxworth.
I believe that a warm bag of oatmeal is a superior player to Dallas Clark, and Harbaugh played Clark.
I believe that Joe Flacco was a superior player to either Boller or Troy Smith, and Harbaugh would have played either Boller or Smith if not for injury/illness.

The point is that Harbaugh sometimes sticks with vets even after it is clear (from their play on the field) that they are not the superior player. Moreover, when a player goes down, it is not unusual for this organization to go out and sign a vet, rather than allow a young player to progress into the role. This leads me to believe that he places a greater value on experience than he places on talent. Maybe he's right in doing so. He's had some pretty good results with it to date. But I have to think that in many cases it is something like a "paying your dues" mentality, and that it sometimes results in the superior player watching the game from the sidelines.

[Dirt1]

Harbaugh may be hesitant to play rookies overall, but that has not been the case with first round draft picks. Barring injury, first round picks usually start or get a ton of playing time, even under Harbaugh. Elam needs to start in place of Huff immediately. Also, I can't believe that Brown would look any worse than Bynes if he were playing. Brown should get some decent amount of playing time versus Cleveland this week. If he outplays Bynes, then he should start alongside Daryl Smith going forward at ILB.

[owknows]

As for Brown and Elam...I don't think they "clearly" outplayed Bynes or Ihegbido (ironically it is looking like the safety Elam may be replacing should be Huff). I think that statement is based on a predetermined bias due to draft spots and computer numbers.

I guess this is maybe where we differ. I think that Brown showed himself to be the #2 ILB on the team behind Smith.

And I think that Elam is arguably the #1 safety.

I think anyone would be hard pressed to make an argument that Dallas Clark outplayed anyone at all before the season started (or after). And yet he made the team, and saw significant action.

[ActualSpamBot]

So not starting in their first game means Harbs is definitely not starting those guys at any point this year?

Wow. So I guess Flacco is going to have 32 TDs and we're going 0-16 too right?

Because one game definitively establishes a pattern to people claiming that.

[B-more Ravor]

The problem I have with those beating that drum about Harbaugh not playing rookies is that people are using that statement as a negative as well as if he's an anomaly in the really good coaching ranks.

The facts are that the only teams routinely starting multiple rookies on any resemblance of annual or even semi annual regularity are bad teams with little veteran talent and or have really high picks.

As for Brown and Elam...I don't think they "clearly" outplayed Bynes or Ihegbido (ironically it is looking like the safety Elam may be replacing should be Huff). I think that statement is based on a predetermined bias due to draft spots and computer numbers.

Also, there was a lot of complaining about how we lost Thursday more so due to mental mistakes than anything...yet we should be rushing guys in who the staff doesn't believe are mentally there yet?

The rooks will be in there soon when they get the mental part down...lets not rush them or act like Harbs has a fatal flaw with rookies here...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Exactly. Thank you.

People should go back and look at the history of Ravens draft pick, especially since they started becoming good in 1999, and see just how few of them - other than 1st round picks - have started much in their rookie years.

As I've been saying, when you are a playoff contender, you aren't relying on rookies to start immediately.

[alien bird]

The premise here is pretty simple. It is that Harbaugh sometimes places too much emphasis on veteran experience over young talent.

I would submit that there are several examples of this phenomenon.

I believe ....
I believe ....
I believe ....
I believe ....
I believe ....
I believe ....
I believe ....

The point is that Harbaugh sometimes sticks with vets even after it is clear (from their play on the field) that they are not the superior player.

I don't have a really strong opinion about the topic, but I found this post to be funny. So just because you believe it to be true, those guys are clearly superior? I don't think seven opinions usually equal one clear fact, but maybe that's just me.

[owknows]

So not starting in their first game means Harbs is definitely not starting those guys at any point this year?

I don't think anyone stated (or even suggested) that.

The point being made, is that Elam and Brown are ALREADY SUPERIOR PLAYERS to their counterparts... and the only reason that they aren't on the field is because they are rookies.

The idea of camp, practice, and preseason is to determine the best players to field. I think that sometimes Harbaugh disregards the actual evidence manifest in the play of the players, and chooses years of experience over superior play. I think there is evidence to suggest this is true.

He may have his reasons for doing this. And it may have been a more sound strategy in the past (when the team didn't have as much turnover). And it may not be as sound a strategy today.

It would be nice to have an objective discussion about such things, without people turning into a raging homer every time someone wants to discuss the strategy employed by the Ravens' staff.