Marlon Brown

[wickedsolo]

I think staying away from the top of the top is the way to go. Those players might bring some extra value for a while, but as soon as they completely catch fire, they want too much money and if the team had geared the offense around that player, it's very disruptive. I think there has to be some sort of happy medium between top elite WR and Tandon Doss. That's what makes the prospect of players like Brown and Mellette being able to contribute so appealing. If they have a solid skill set, and a rookie contract, they can be major contributors for years to come without breaking the bank. That strikes me as ideal.

Agreed. Only problem is how they are developed, which seems to be the issue with the Ravens.

[RavensRule21215]

Agreed. Only problem is how they are developed, which seems to be the issue with the Ravens.

I've been impressed with T Smith's development. When he first came out of college he did not run great routes, did not track the ball well, and dropped a lot of passes. The turn around with Torrey has been remarkable. Heck, even his blocking, as evidenced in the wild card game against the Colts was text book. So if anything remotely similar happens with Brown and/or Mellette, then I'd say the team has definitely turned the corner. Coach em up, put em in the best position to contribute, and start getting ready for a dynasty.

[Dirt1]

I think staying away from the top of the top is the way to go. Those players might bring some extra value for a while, but as soon as they completely catch fire, they want too much money and if the team had geared the offense around that player, it's very disruptive. I think there has to be some sort of happy medium between top elite WR and Tandon Doss. That's what makes the prospect of players like Brown and Mellette being able to contribute so appealing. If they have a solid skill set, and a rookie contract, they can be major contributors for years to come without breaking the bank. That strikes me as ideal.

Yeah, but if you can get one of those guys, with the rookie salary cap in place, you have him locked up for at least 4 years at a reasonable salary before he is eligible for FA. Four years is a long time in the NFL.

[RavensRule21215]

Yeah, but if you can get one of those guys, with the rookie salary cap in place, you have him locked up for at least 4 years at a reasonable salary before he is eligible for FA. Four years is a long time in the NFL.

True that. But don't some of them, because they were high round picks, start whining and wanting to renegotiate their contracts before they're up? That's not to say a lower round draft pick wouldn't do the same thing, but I think a lower round pick might be a little more appreciative of having been given the opportunity to play from day one.

[RavensRule21215]

Is t that what this entire thread has pretty much evolved into? How fans are either "panicking/in terror" or whatever?

Or whatever. Definitely.

:girlfight

[Raveninwoodlawn]

I think his point is that it wouldn't be a case of a 6th instead of a 3rd, it would be a case of a 4th and 6th vs. a (late) 3rd.

In the New England - Dallas trade, New England did not gain any picks. They traded 2 picks for 2 picks. The #24 and #119 for #27 and #90.

Dirt is saying we could have offered a full extra pick to New England to move up the one spot, giving New England a completely extra pick in the draft just to move back 1 spot in the 1st round.

That said, I do not think a (late) 6th would have done it. New England likes to come out "on top" in terms of the Draft Pick Trade Value chart. They would have likely needed a 5th or maybe even a 5th and 6th. And they might not have wanted any part of helping a fellow AFC competitor.

Nothing is a given, but we did have enough to make a fair offer to move up one spot. It would have required us trading multiple picks for a single pick.

New England essentially moved back 3 spots to move up 29 spots from their pick in the 4th to the 3rd. That is a tremendous deal IMHO and in no way equal to saying, here is a pick near the end of the 6th.

In a vaccum, sure that may have done it.

But when you are dangling a carrot, and that carrot is Dez Bryant, the Cowboys upped the ante and gave New England what they wanted...at that point Belichick was all about hoarding 2nd and 3rd round picks. He doesn't trade just for the hell of it.

I don't think there is any way New England would have viewed an extra close to 7th round pick as any way as valuable as moving up 29 spots in between the 4th and 3rd rounds.

Thanks. This is what I meant. In addition, NE could have packaged their 4th round pick with the extra 6th round pick they got from the Ravens to move up a number of spots in a trade with another team, just as they did with the Cowboys trade. I just don't buy that the Ravens FO could not have put together a package to move up one spot from #25 to #24 in the first round that year, if they had wanted to. I don't think they wanted to do it, because they don't trust their ability to evaluate WRs. The Ravens and NE have made first round trades before (Boller).

If the Cowboys weren't offering what they were offering?...sure that may have worked out. and like I said, give New England a 2 either that year or the following, and that likely gets it done to. But I can't be upset with the team not wanting to go that route having just given up picks for Boldin.

But nobody would honestly and objectively say they'd rather move back 1 spot, lose the falling carrot that the Cowboys wanted for a 6th round pick...when you can move back just 3 spots where your guy is likely still going to be there and gain 29 spots in between the 4th and 3rd rounds.

Edit:...Another big part of that trade...New England did not have a 3rd round pick at all so you know they wanted a pick in that round.

[s.r.genovese]

Agreed, but Greg Jennings, James Jones, Jordy Nelson, Randall Cobb, Victor Cruz, Hakeem Nicks, Stevie Johnson, Brandon Marshall, Kenny Britt, Vincent Jackson and many other established receivers in the NFL weren't top-15 picks.

For whatever reason, until Torrey, the Ravens have not scouted or drafted receivers well at all.

Other than a guy like Marshall, I don't see any reason why Torrey (in Caldwell's offense) can't project to be just as productive as any one of those guys.

[Paintballguy]

Other than a guy like Marshall, I don't see any reason why Torrey (in Caldwell's offense) can't project to be just as productive as any one of those guys.

Torrey will be a 1200 yard 10 td guy this year. I'd put money on it.


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[BPF2]

Torrey will be a 1200 yard 10 td guy this year. I'd put money on it.


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I don't know how many yards or TDs to expect from him, but I think that TD he scored against ATL is a sign of things to come. That CB was a good 10 yards off him because he was afraid to get burned deep, so Torrey cut it inside, all the way across, and then burned the entire D deep. If he and Joe can continue to read the coverage and react like that, look out.

[BigPlayReceiver]

Or whatever. Definitely.

:girlfight

Someone should write a song...

[Haloti92]

New England essentially moved back 3 spots to move up 29 spots from their pick in the 4th to the 3rd. That is a tremendous deal IMHO and in no way equal to saying, here is a pick near the end of the 6th.

In a vaccum, sure that may have done it.

But when you are dangling a carrot, and that carrot is Dez Bryant, the Cowboys upped the ante and gave New England what they wanted...at that point Belichick was all about hoarding 2nd and 3rd round picks. He doesn't trade just for the hell of it.

I don't think there is any way New England would have viewed an extra close to 7th round pick as any way as valuable as moving up 29 spots in between the 4th and 3rd rounds.



If the Cowboys weren't offering what they were offering?...sure that may have worked out. and like I said, give New England a 2 either that year or the following, and that likely gets it done to. But I can't be upset with the team not wanting to go that route having just given up picks for Boldin.

But nobody would honestly and objectively say they'd rather move back 1 spot, lose the falling carrot that the Cowboys wanted for a 6th round pick...when you can move back just 3 spots where your guy is likely still going to be there and gain 29 spots in between the 4th and 3rd rounds.

Edit:...Another big part of that trade...New England did not have a 3rd round pick at all so you know they wanted a pick in that round.

I hear what you are saying but I think you are somewhat overstating the "carrot" or "premium" that Dallas offered. The trade was only marginally in the Pats favor.

I also stated that a 6th alone from us does not do the trick. A 5th and 6th however is a different story.

New England - Dallas trade:

#24 = 740
#119 = 56

for

#27 = 680
#90 = 140

So 796 pts. traded for 820 pts., in New England's favor (24 pts. or roughly a premium of a #168 pick in 6th round)

Hypothetical New England - Baltimore trade:

#24 = 740

for

#25 = 720
#156 = 29
#194 = 13.8

So 740 pts. traded for 762.8 pts., in New England's favor (22.8 pts. or roughly a premium of a #171 pick in the 6th round).

About as close to the same value as possible, all things considered.

New England could still then move from #119 to #90. By using any combination of the extra #5 and extra #6 they got from us and anything they could have gotten from trading back from #25 to #27 (or beyond if they felt McCourty would still be there).

My only point is that we were not precluded from making a similar offer by the nature of our draft picks (after acquiring Boldin). Whether New England would have gone for a similar offer, who knows. You are correct that the Dallas trade was a quicker easier way to accomplish the goal, assuming the goal was to move back a few spots in the 1st and move up into the 3rd from the 4th.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

I hear what you are saying but I think you overstating the "carrot" or "premium" that Dallas offered. The trade was only marginally in the Pats favor.

I also stated that a 6th alone does not do the trick. A 5th and 6th however is a different story.

New England - Dallas trade:

#24 = 740
#119 = 56

for

#27 = 680
#90 = 140

So 796 pts. traded for 820 pts., in New England's favor (24 pts. or roughly a premium of a #168 pick in 6th round)

Hypothetical New England - Baltimore trade:

#24 = 740

for

#25 = 720
#156 = 29
#194 = 13.8

So 740 pts. traded for 762.8 pts., in New England's favor (22.8 pts. or roughly a premium of a #171 pick in the 6th round).

About as close to the same value as possible, all things considered.

New England could still then move from #119 to #90. By using any combination of the extra #5 and extra #6 they got from us and anything they could have gotten from trading back from #25 to #27 (or beyond if they felt McCourty would still be there).

The chart didn't play any part of this IMHO.

New England clearly wanted a 3rd round pick...they were hoarding picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds at the time yet didn't have one that year and I would bet a lot on the fact that one of Belichick's goals going into the draft was to get a 3rd round pick while keeping his other high picks. He got his chance early while still getting the guy he wanted.

There is no guarantee that someone would have taken late 5th and 6th rounders on day 3 and agreed to the movement they got from Dallas. Saying "they could have then packaged pick X and Y for pick z is speculation based on other teams needs, how their boards fell and how closely they wanted to adhere to that chart...the chart is a rough guideline that teams go outside of all the time depending on those other factors.

They got what they wanted from Dallas without having to hope some other team would allow them to move up 29 spots without giving up much.