Marlon Brown

**HotInHere** · 08-29-2013, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by RavensRule21215

Downfield speed, the ability to run proper routes, and the ability to simply hold onto the ball are all prerequisites for being an NFL outside wide receiver; they don't equate with being "elite". Being elite requires extra abilities, like Megatron being able to go up among 3 defenders and come down with the ball. Or Fitz also. Being elite means having the speed to blow by all CBs in the NFL, like Wallace. Etc. Smith has enough speed, has learned to run good enough routes, and holds onto the ball now so that I consider him to be a legitimate, effective #1 wideout, but not an elite wideout.

Please stop saying "elite" to me. I didn't say anything about elite. Everyone with a brain in their squash knows you don't need an elite receiver to win a Super Bowl. We agree on that. That is not, and never has been, the point of my discussion with you.

Originally Posted by RavensRule21215

As far as what it takes to win a super bowl...more teams that have won did/do have downfield threats, or at least legitimate bona fide weapons. The days of "Defense wins championships" (coupled with solid running games) is becoming a thing of the past, as the rules continue to stack against the D's. Are there exceptions? Of course. But more teams that win Super Bowls (or have 18-0 seasons) now have legitimate weapons, franchise QBs, than in the past. And it's only going to continue moving in that direction. A solid D, and a top flight offense, are what wins championships in the 21st century. (IMO, of course. But a perusal of the SB Champs of the past 10 years bears that out.)

You keep moving the discussion. We were talking about downfield threats. A downfield threat is someone who has the speed to get behind the defense, and catches a lot of balls far down the field from the line of scrimmage. Torrey Smith is one, and so we had one when we won last year. We did not, however, have a receiver fitting that description in any way on our 2000 team. Nor did any of the three Pats championship teams. Nor did the Giants first championship team. One or two might be considered aberrations. But this many just means that your premise is wrong.

And as for this new idea you are inserting into our discussion about needing a "top flight offense" to win, again the facts just don't bear it out. Here are the offensive rankings of the most recent SB Champs, starting with us last year: 16, 8, 9, 10, 1, 22, and 16. Only the Saints were "top flight." The others were mediocre to good. In fact you can have a 22nd ranked offense if you have a great defense to support it. ('08 Steelers.)

Originally Posted by RavensRule21215

And your inclusion of the Colts in 2006 -- Reggie Wayne isn't a legitimate downfield threat? Along with Clark? That's just silly, isn't it?

No Reggie Wayne is not a downfield threat. He was never known as a burner, he was never a deep threat, he has never commanded keeping deep safeties over the top because he is not the kind of guy who is a home run hitter. He has average 13.5 yards per reception for his career (and Dallas Clark has averaged even less.) He is a great, borderline HOF receiver. But that is different from being a "downfield threat", where this discussion originated. Many great receivers are not downfield threats. They are possession guys, YAC guys, hands guys, red zone guys, etc.

Just for comparison sake, when you are talking about a downfield threat, Torrey has been up around 17 for the past two seasons.

You are absolutely entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts. And the facts do not support your opinion in this case no matter how much you want them to.

**JAB1985** · 08-29-2013, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

Well, you win some...you lose some.

I agree. Dez Bryant would have been an phenomenal addition to the offense. He jumped up into top-5 discussions with his performance last year and outside of Julio, Megatron and Larry Fitz, I'm not sure there is anyone better. Andre Johnson, perhaps.

I think Marshall and Green is in that convo as well.

with Dez i dont think it was ever about talent... it was character. I thought the FO has said or at least hinted that he wouldnt have been their pick if he was there anyway. Hindsight, its 50-50. He is a great talent that would be great to have, but he was still having character issues last year yet, so did the team make the wrong call? not sure thats been concluded yet.

**wickedsolo** · 08-29-2013, 01:43 PM

I dont know that I would consider Mike Wallace an elite receiver.

I think he has elite speed...and that's where the elite description stops with him as far as I am concerned.

**Raveninwoodlawn** · 08-29-2013, 01:43 PM

I think Dez would have been the pick, but the FO didn't feel any need to trade up for him because we had just traded for Boldin. If we didn't get Q, we would have made the trade for him IMHO. I know I personally was really pissed off because I knew a guy like that wouldn't be available at our typical late pick for a long time.

He has definitely started to mature and looks to be on the verge of tearing the league up, but it is what it is. Props to Dallas for making that trade.

**wickedsolo** · 08-29-2013, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by JAB1985

I think Marshall and Green is in that convo as well.

with Dez i dont think it was ever about talent... it was character. I thought the FO has said or at least hinted that he wouldnt have been there pick if he was there anyway. Hindsight, its 50-50. He is a great talent that would be great to have, but he was still having character issues last year yet, so did the team make the wrong call? not sure thats been concluded yet.

Good call.

I think if we were to look at receivers under 30, then yea...Megatron, Julio, Dez, Green, Marshall, etc.

Technically, Fitzgerald is under 30 for another 2 days...

**Dirt1** · 08-29-2013, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by JAB1985

I think Marshall and Green is in that convo as well.

with Dez i dont think it was ever about talent... it was character. I thought the FO has said or at least hinted that he wouldnt have been there pick if he was there anyway. Hindsight, its 50-50. He is a great talent that would be great to have, but he was still having character issues last year yet, so did the team make the wrong call? not sure thats been concluded yet.

Bryant was only taken one pick ahead of the Ravens pick. I don't think they would have taken him if he had lasted one more pick either, which is what really pisses me off. The Ravens FO says they don't believe in "mortgaging the future" by trading a bunch of picks to move up into the Top 10 to get an impact WR. Ok, I agree with that. However, when an impact WR falls into the Ravens lap, and they still don't take him, then I think they are just full of shit. Bryant would have never lasted that long had he not had questions marks about him. They then proceed to take Sergio Kindle, who had his own question marks. Kindle had question marks about his drinking in college, as well as health concerns with regard to his knees.

**Raveninwoodlawn** · 08-29-2013, 01:57 PM

Remember, we didn't have a 3rd or 4th round pick at the time New England was shopping the pick Dez was taken with.

We would have had to have given up our 2nd rounder to move up one spot at the end of the first round.

I definitely think we would have taken him at our pick if he were there.

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**JAB1985** · 08-29-2013, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Dirt1

Bryant was only taken one pick ahead of the Ravens pick. I don't think they would have taken him if he had lasted one more pick either, which is what really pisses me off. The Ravens FO says they don't believe in "mortgaging the future" by trading a bunch of picks to move up into the Top 10 to get an impact WR. Ok, I agree with that. However, when an impact WR falls into the Ravens lap, and they still don't take him, then I think they are just full of shit. Bryant would have never lasted that long had he not had questions marks about him. They then proceed to take Sergio Kindle, who had his own question marks. Kindle had question marks about his drinking in college, as well as health concerns with regard to his knees.

valid point, considering that they ended up drafting a guy with question marks as well. I guess theyd argue the value of taking him that high with those concerns vs a 2nd rounder with them.

**Dirt1** · 08-29-2013, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn

Remember, we didn't have a 3rd or 4th round pick at the time New England was shopping the pick Dez was taken with.

We would have had to have given up our 2nd rounder to move up one spot at the end of the first round.

I definitely think we would have taken him at our pick if he were there.

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I don't think so. The Ravens traded up a few spots the year they got Michael Oher, and they only had to give up a 6th round pick. They took Oher at about the same spot that they would have taken Bryant.

**Raveninwoodlawn** · 08-29-2013, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Dirt1

I don't think so. The Ravens traded up a few spots the year they got Michael Oher, and they only had to give up a 6th round pick. They took Oher at about the same spot that they would have taken Bryant.

The Cowboys offered a 3rd round pick to move up.

New England wasn't going to take a 6th when they were being offered a 3rd from another team.

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**Dirt1** · 08-29-2013, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn

The Cowboys offered a 3rd round pick to move up.

New England wasn't going to take a 6th when they were being offered a 3rd from another team.

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That's a good point. They would have had to be more proactive to move up, but that would have cost them more with picks.

**Raveninwoodlawn** · 08-29-2013, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Dirt1

That's a good point. They would have had to be more proactive to move up, but that would have cost them more with picks.

Yup...that's why I said I can't be upset that we didn't move up.

We already were without our 3rd and 4th rounders due to trading for Boldin earlier (we recovered a 3rd and 4th by trading out of our spot with Denver), so in order to trump the Cowboys offer, we would have had to offer our 2nd rounder...which would have left us with Dez Bryant and 5th, 6th, and 7th round picks. Some of us would have been ok with that, but I understand why the team wasn't.