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Thread: Marlon Brown

  1. #241

    Re: Marlon Brown



    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    you singled me out for saying that the fan base is making a bigger issue out of the WR position than the coaching staff. than proceeded to tell me im wrong for 3 pages, and im the one thats saying my opinion is more important?

    The one post youre looking for is the whole front page of this forum. That General gist you speak of, also has been attached with "to the detriment of our season" often as well. Saying we cant rely on young unproven WRs, when we have, successfully just 2 years ago seems odd to me. thats my opinion, im certainly not saying its better than anybody else, but its mine which i clearly stated as my own.
    We're done.




  2. #242
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    Re: Marlon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    smh...yet again a poster putting up a straw man argument. NO ONE said the receivers had to be "elite".
    No, but you did imply that we needed downfield threats to win our Super Bowl. Or is that not what you were trying to say?

    Teams win Super Bowls without downfield threats all the time. The Pats won three of them. The Giants won their first. Indy didn't have a downfield threat, blow-the-top-off-the-D kinda guy on their Super Bowl team. It's just not true.
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  3. #243

    Re: Marlon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by HotInHere View Post
    No, but you did imply that we needed downfield threats to win our Super Bowl. Or is that not what you were trying to say?

    Teams win Super Bowls without downfield threats all the time. The Pats won three of them. The Giants won their first. Indy didn't have a downfield threat, blow-the-top-off-the-D kinda guy on their Super Bowl team. It's just not true.
    Downfield speed, the ability to run proper routes, and the ability to simply hold onto the ball are all prerequisites for being an NFL outside wide receiver; they don't equate with being "elite". Being elite requires extra abilities, like Megatron being able to go up among 3 defenders and come down with the ball. Or Fitz also. Being elite means having the speed to blow by all CBs in the NFL, like Wallace. Etc. Smith has enough speed, has learned to run good enough routes, and holds onto the ball now so that I consider him to be a legitimate, effective #1 wideout, but not an elite wideout.

    As far as what it takes to win a super bowl...more teams that have won did/do have downfield threats, or at least legitimate bona fide weapons. The days of "Defense wins championships" (coupled with solid running games) is becoming a thing of the past, as the rules continue to stack against the D's. Are there exceptions? Of course. But more teams that win Super Bowls (or have 18-0 seasons) now have legitimate weapons, franchise QBs, than in the past. And it's only going to continue moving in that direction. A solid D, and a top flight offense, are what wins championships in the 21st century. (IMO, of course. But a perusal of the SB Champs of the past 10 years bears that out.)

    And your inclusion of the Colts in 2006 -- Reggie Wayne isn't a legitimate downfield threat? Along with Clark? That's just silly, isn't it?




  4. #244
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    Re: Marlon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    Downfield speed, the ability to run proper routes, and the ability to simply hold onto the ball are all prerequisites for being an NFL outside wide receiver; they don't equate with being "elite". Being elite requires extra abilities, like Megatron being able to go up among 3 defenders and come down with the ball. Or Fitz also. Being elite means having the speed to blow by all CBs in the NFL, like Wallace. Etc. Smith has enough speed, has learned to run good enough routes, and holds onto the ball now so that I consider him to be a legitimate, effective #1 wideout, but not an elite wideout.

    As far as what it takes to win a super bowl...more teams that have won did/do have downfield threats, or at least legitimate bona fide weapons. The days of "Defense wins championships" (coupled with solid running games) is becoming a thing of the past, as the rules continue to stack against the D's. Are there exceptions? Of course. But more teams that win Super Bowls (or have 18-0 seasons) now have legitimate weapons, franchise QBs, than in the past. And it's only going to continue moving in that direction. A solid D, and a top flight offense, are what wins championships in the 21st century. (IMO, of course. But a perusal of the SB Champs of the past 10 years bears that out.)

    And your inclusion of the Colts in 2006 -- Reggie Wayne isn't a legitimate downfield threat? Along with Clark? That's just silly, isn't it?
    Not really. You could argue Marvin Harrison was their vertical threat, but Reggie Wayne was more of a possession receiver. He always has been. Now that doesn't necessarily mean that Wayne can't or couldn't have been a downfield threat, but it isn't like he was Torrey Smith out there or something. That's just not his game. His game more closely resembles Anquan Boldin.
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  5. #245
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    Re: Marlon Brown

    And I can't help but chuckle at this entire thread.

    As others have pointed out, we (as fans...all of us) get worked up over some position every single off-season. The WR position has been a sticking point for a while now, but last year it was Joe Flacco, Michael Oher and the ILB position. The year before it was TE, Joe Flacco, Michael Oher, and pass rushers other than Suggs, etc etc.

    It really is something that the fans seem to get more worked up over than the team/coaches/front office.

    Joe is a SB MVP. He has a hell of an arm, a fantastic understanding of the offensive philosophy, a decent OL/ground game and an offensive coordinator that clearly understands how to utilize the talent he has. I think Joe, much like other great QBs, can play a big part in making something out of nothing.

    I would love to see Baltimore finally get their Julio Jones, Dez Bryant or even a really solid #2 like Brian Hartline, James Jones or Golden Tate. I legitimately believe that this offense - as it stands now - is 1 dominant receiver away from being prolific.

    However, I still think they can win and make a run for another SB birth/victory with who they have.

    RB by committee works. Pass rushing packages vs run stopping packages work on defense. Why can't certain receiver packages work to supplement Torrey?
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  6. #246

    Re: Marlon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Not really. You could argue Marvin Harrison was their vertical threat, but Reggie Wayne was more of a possession receiver. He always has been. Now that doesn't necessarily mean that Wayne can't or couldn't have been a downfield threat, but it isn't like he was Torrey Smith out there or something. That's just not his game. His game more closely resembles Anquan Boldin.
    My bad. I meant Harrison. Sorry. But that makes the point even stronger: Harrison, Wayne, Clark...and some poster wants to suggest that the 2006 Colts didn't have a high power offense with Manning at the helm? Seriously?
    Last edited by RavensRule21215; 08-29-2013 at 12:54 PM.




  7. #247

    Re: Marlon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    And I can't help but chuckle at this entire thread.

    As others have pointed out, we (as fans...all of us) get worked up over some position every single off-season. The WR position has been a sticking point for a while now, but last year it was Joe Flacco, Michael Oher and the ILB position. The year before it was TE, Joe Flacco, Michael Oher, and pass rushers other than Suggs, etc etc.

    It really is something that the fans seem to get more worked up over than the team/coaches/front office.

    Joe is a SB MVP. He has a hell of an arm, a fantastic understanding of the offensive philosophy, a decent OL/ground game and an offensive coordinator that clearly understands how to utilize the talent he has. I think Joe, much like other great QBs, can play a big part in making something out of nothing.

    I would love to see Baltimore finally get their Julio Jones, Dez Bryant or even a really solid #2 like Brian Hartline, James Jones or Golden Tate. I legitimately believe that this offense - as it stands now - is 1 dominant receiver away from being prolific.

    However, I still think they can win and make a run for another SB birth/victory with who they have.

    RB by committee works. Pass rushing packages vs run stopping packages work on defense. Why can't certain receiver packages work to supplement Torrey?
    I'm not quite sure what it is, exactly, that you're chuckling about. In years past, QB was a huge issue because it WAS a huge issue/problem. The national media knew it, and despite a few homers who kept insisting that "teams don't need franchise QBs to win Super Bowls", most fans knew it as well. Once Joe came on board, aside from a few fans, I think most fans recognized the immediate upgrade and haven't looked back since.

    The issue of Cam Cameron kept coming up because he WAS a problem, and those who insisted that the Ravens wouldn't win a Super Bowl with him were correct -- it was only AFTER he got booted that things got on track.

    This year, with the trading of Boldin, a gap was created. The word coming from the FO was that they felt they had the necessary talent and were not going to go out and bring in an older vet. (That changed after Pitta went down and Doss/Reed disappointed, as a number of posters predicted they would.) So I'm not really sure what you're finding so amusing, or what, exactly, you think fans SHOULD be talking about. The color of the uniforms? Who won the Ed Block Courage Award?




  8. #248

    Re: Marlon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    And I can't help but chuckle at this entire thread.

    As others have pointed out, we (as fans...all of us) get worked up over some position every single off-season. The WR position has been a sticking point for a while now, but last year it was Joe Flacco, Michael Oher and the ILB position. The year before it was TE, Joe Flacco, Michael Oher, and pass rushers other than Suggs, etc etc.

    It really is something that the fans seem to get more worked up over than the team/coaches/front office.

    Joe is a SB MVP. He has a hell of an arm, a fantastic understanding of the offensive philosophy, a decent OL/ground game and an offensive coordinator that clearly understands how to utilize the talent he has. I think Joe, much like other great QBs, can play a big part in making something out of nothing.

    I would love to see Baltimore finally get their Julio Jones, Dez Bryant or even a really solid #2 like Brian Hartline, James Jones or Golden Tate. I legitimately believe that this offense - as it stands now - is 1 dominant receiver away from being prolific.

    However, I still think they can win and make a run for another SB birth/victory with who they have.

    RB by committee works. Pass rushing packages vs run stopping packages work on defense. Why can't certain receiver packages work to supplement Torrey?


    preach.
    -JAB




  9. #249

    Re: Marlon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    And I can't help but chuckle at this entire thread.

    As others have pointed out, we (as fans...all of us) get worked up over some position every single off-season. The WR position has been a sticking point for a while now, but last year it was Joe Flacco, Michael Oher and the ILB position. The year before it was TE, Joe Flacco, Michael Oher, and pass rushers other than Suggs, etc etc.

    It really is something that the fans seem to get more worked up over than the team/coaches/front office.

    Joe is a SB MVP. He has a hell of an arm, a fantastic understanding of the offensive philosophy, a decent OL/ground game and an offensive coordinator that clearly understands how to utilize the talent he has. I think Joe, much like other great QBs, can play a big part in making something out of nothing.

    I would love to see Baltimore finally get their Julio Jones, Dez Bryant or even a really solid #2 like Brian Hartline, James Jones or Golden Tate. I legitimately believe that this offense - as it stands now - is 1 dominant receiver away from being prolific.

    However, I still think they can win and make a run for another SB birth/victory with who they have.

    RB by committee works. Pass rushing packages vs run stopping packages work on defense. Why can't certain receiver packages work to supplement Torrey?
    A. Edited.

    B. Of course they can win. I happen to feel that they have the ammunition to go out and improve those chances. I think that's all those of us (who are being accused of panicking) are trying to say. Nobody is saying give up an entire draft or the future of the team. I think it's still going to happen. If it doesn't, I will root for Marlon Brown to become the next Marques Colston.
    Last edited by wickedsolo; 08-29-2013 at 01:12 PM. Reason: Edited by Wicked.




  10. #250
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    Re: Marlon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I would love to see Baltimore finally get their Julio Jones, Dez Bryant or even a really solid #2 like Brian Hartline, James Jones or Golden Tate. I legitimately believe that this offense - as it stands now - is 1 dominant receiver away from being prolific.

    However, I still think they can win and make a run for another SB birth/victory with who they have.
    Dez Bryant is the guy that always gets me upset with the way the FO looks at the WR position. The Ravens could have gotten Bryant. He was taken just one pick before theirs in the first round. They could have moved up slightly and gotten him, but chose not to. I think they traded out of the first round that year and drafted Sergio Kindle with their first pick in the second round. I think the Ravens had some questions about Bryant's background, which is why they said they didn't take him. IMO, that is a bunch of BS. If Dez Bryant didn't have any question marks about him, he would have been a Top 10 pick, and would have never lasted until the mid-20s in the first round.

    A lot of people on this board consistently post the the FO doesn't get worked up about the WR position. I wonder if that is because the Ravens FO lacks confidence with their ability to evaluate and draft WRs, so they shy away from that position and draft players at other positions where they have traditionally had more success.




  11. #251
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    Re: Marlon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    I'm not quite sure what it is, exactly, that you're chuckling about. In years past, QB was a huge issue because it WAS a huge issue/problem. The national media knew it, and despite a few homers who kept insisting that "teams don't need franchise QBs to win Super Bowls", most fans knew it as well. Once Joe came on board, aside from a few fans, I think most fans recognized the immediate upgrade and haven't looked back since.

    The issue of Cam Cameron kept coming up because he WAS a problem, and those who insisted that the Ravens wouldn't win a Super Bowl with him were correct -- it was only AFTER he got booted that things got on track.

    This year, with the trading of Boldin, a gap was created. The word coming from the FO was that they felt they had the necessary talent and were not going to go out and bring in an older vet. (That changed after Pitta went down and Doss/Reed disappointed, as a number of posters predicted they would.) So I'm not really sure what you're finding so amusing, or what, exactly, you think fans SHOULD be talking about. The color of the uniforms? Who won the Ed Block Courage Award?
    I understand that Cam, QB and everything else was an issue.

    I am chuckling because we - as fans...and rightfully so - are so caught up in the potential issues surrounding the team, yet the coaching staff and front office rarely seem to be as caught up on the issue(s) as we are.

    I mean, look at us...here were are on a fucking Thursday at 1:20pm arguing about the receiver position on game day...a week before the regular season starts.

    Can't I find a little bit of humor in that?
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  12. #252
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    Re: Marlon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    Dez Bryant is the guy that always gets me upset with the way the FO looks at the WR position. The Ravens could have gotten Bryant. He was taken just one pick before theirs in the first round. They could have moved up slightly and gotten him, but chose not to. I think they traded out of the first round that year and drafted Sergio Kindle with their first pick in the second round. I think the Ravens had some questions about Bryant's background, which is why they said they didn't take him. IMO, that is a bunch of BS. If Dez Bryant didn't have any question marks about him, he would have been a Top 10 pick, and would have never lasted until the mid-20s in the first round.

    A lot of people on this board consistently post the the FO doesn't get worked up about the WR position. I wonder if that is because the Ravens FO lacks confidence with their ability to evaluate and draft WRs, so they shy away from that position and draft players at other positions where they have traditionally had more success.
    Well, you win some...you lose some.

    I agree. Dez Bryant would have been an phenomenal addition to the offense. He jumped up into top-5 discussions with his performance last year and outside of Julio, Megatron and Larry Fitz, I'm not sure there is anyone better. Andre Johnson, perhaps.
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  13. #253
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    Re: Marlon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    Downfield speed, the ability to run proper routes, and the ability to simply hold onto the ball are all prerequisites for being an NFL outside wide receiver; they don't equate with being "elite". Being elite requires extra abilities, like Megatron being able to go up among 3 defenders and come down with the ball. Or Fitz also. Being elite means having the speed to blow by all CBs in the NFL, like Wallace. Etc. Smith has enough speed, has learned to run good enough routes, and holds onto the ball now so that I consider him to be a legitimate, effective #1 wideout, but not an elite wideout.
    Please stop saying "elite" to me. I didn't say anything about elite. Everyone with a brain in their squash knows you don't need an elite receiver to win a Super Bowl. We agree on that. That is not, and never has been, the point of my discussion with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    As far as what it takes to win a super bowl...more teams that have won did/do have downfield threats, or at least legitimate bona fide weapons. The days of "Defense wins championships" (coupled with solid running games) is becoming a thing of the past, as the rules continue to stack against the D's. Are there exceptions? Of course. But more teams that win Super Bowls (or have 18-0 seasons) now have legitimate weapons, franchise QBs, than in the past. And it's only going to continue moving in that direction. A solid D, and a top flight offense, are what wins championships in the 21st century. (IMO, of course. But a perusal of the SB Champs of the past 10 years bears that out.)
    You keep moving the discussion. We were talking about downfield threats. A downfield threat is someone who has the speed to get behind the defense, and catches a lot of balls far down the field from the line of scrimmage. Torrey Smith is one, and so we had one when we won last year. We did not, however, have a receiver fitting that description in any way on our 2000 team. Nor did any of the three Pats championship teams. Nor did the Giants first championship team. One or two might be considered aberrations. But this many just means that your premise is wrong.

    And as for this new idea you are inserting into our discussion about needing a "top flight offense" to win, again the facts just don't bear it out. Here are the offensive rankings of the most recent SB Champs, starting with us last year: 16, 8, 9, 10, 1, 22, and 16. Only the Saints were "top flight." The others were mediocre to good. In fact you can have a 22nd ranked offense if you have a great defense to support it. ('08 Steelers.)


    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    And your inclusion of the Colts in 2006 -- Reggie Wayne isn't a legitimate downfield threat? Along with Clark? That's just silly, isn't it?
    No Reggie Wayne is not a downfield threat. He was never known as a burner, he was never a deep threat, he has never commanded keeping deep safeties over the top because he is not the kind of guy who is a home run hitter. He has average 13.5 yards per reception for his career (and Dallas Clark has averaged even less.) He is a great, borderline HOF receiver. But that is different from being a "downfield threat", where this discussion originated. Many great receivers are not downfield threats. They are possession guys, YAC guys, hands guys, red zone guys, etc.

    Just for comparison sake, when you are talking about a downfield threat, Torrey has been up around 17 for the past two seasons.

    You are absolutely entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts. And the facts do not support your opinion in this case no matter how much you want them to.
    "Leave. Your. Mark."




  14. #254

    Re: Marlon Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Well, you win some...you lose some.

    I agree. Dez Bryant would have been an phenomenal addition to the offense. He jumped up into top-5 discussions with his performance last year and outside of Julio, Megatron and Larry Fitz, I'm not sure there is anyone better. Andre Johnson, perhaps.
    I think Marshall and Green is in that convo as well.

    with Dez i dont think it was ever about talent... it was character. I thought the FO has said or at least hinted that he wouldnt have been their pick if he was there anyway. Hindsight, its 50-50. He is a great talent that would be great to have, but he was still having character issues last year yet, so did the team make the wrong call? not sure thats been concluded yet.
    Last edited by JAB1985; 08-29-2013 at 01:58 PM.
    -JAB




  15. #255
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    Re: Marlon Brown

    I dont know that I would consider Mike Wallace an elite receiver.


    I think he has elite speed...and that's where the elite description stops with him as far as I am concerned.
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